posted 153 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Yes Dom, it's the same sort of thing. Killing grey squirrels and shooting ducks.... it's racist. 

I've never seen a grey squirrel we don't have them here yet, but they do tell us to keep an eye and report it if we see one cause we don't want them here. They say they're a threat to the reds and can ruin trees.... oh dear! It's announced as a pest and an enemy already.... poor soul. Who's the vermin of the vermins? The ARCH-pest of all times?

posted 153 days ago Dom:

Rain, rain. Can't sleep. You have to ignore the winders up steve. Let them carry on. If they feel the need to gloat let them be. Not worth your time. Glad you helped the gull. I've been extensively photographing gulls this year and I hope to exhibit some shots, maybe I can convince a few people how darn cool these animals are. We have a ton by us . I'm on cull watch cuz I know what people are like. Also I found about 60 odd ladybirds hibernating in my curtain! So I moved them into the spare room - I moved the whole curtain - and hopefully they will be ok. I didn't touch them. Bless the little critters.

posted 153 days ago Dom:

Yup these clubs exist steve. Probably have a great deal of say in our day to day existence to. You only have to look at the occupy movement and the scale of it and how it's scantly reported on by the BBC I urge you to YouTube UFC Davis Steve and the pepperspray cop. It's shocking abuse. Tell people. The hacker collective ' anonymous ' ( google them) have struck back and posted all his details online. There are many gentkemen clubs, Cameron was a bullington boy or something barmy. Also many high brow colleges have groups like this. Bush was in one called the skull and bones group. You will also find many of his aides were also in the same group, much like osbourne and co were in the bullington boys

posted 153 days ago StevenAult:

There was an article about the badger cull trials on BBC news, and the reporter mentioned that campaigners disputed the science and were opposed to the cull. This is not true at all. Campaigners are supportive of the science, it's the government which is twisting/ignoring the science. Yes Dom there are some pretty vile people winding up campaigners by saying they can't wait for the cull. I hope Ms Spelman realises that she's making some very unpleasant people very happy. Maybe we should collect all of these comments and send them to her via e-mail so she knows the sort of people she's pandering too. The police are prepared to spend millions tackling campaigners but are not prepared to spare any resources on policing illegal fox hunts. You just know the police are socially connected to these people. Do we need to talk about 'gentlemans' groups like the Masons? Do they still exist? It's all very disturbing. I stopped a boy being unpleasant to a Herring Gull once and he said they're going to be culled anyway. He was wrong in the end, but that certainly will happen now with badgers too. The government are encouraging bloodsports enthusiasts, even vidicating them. I've just had to carry a young Herring gull with a damaged wing to the harbour. Poor thing was wondering the streets looking vulnerable. He's swimming in the harbour now, even with a damaged wing. They can survive there without flying. Bloody slippy out and very cold. The Yorkshire Wildlife Trust culled some Ruddy Ducks a few years ago Dom, completely pointless and cruel. Conservation groups are NOT animal lovers, they encourage biodiversity. Donate your money wisely! Local wildlife sanctuaries are best, they are set up by non discriminating people with good heart.  

posted 153 days ago Dom:

Looks like the Severn might flood so I might be off for a bit. What thee get for choosing to live by a river. It's up a good 10ft just today, really is a gnarly old river

posted 153 days ago Dom:

Also Bet about the ducks, so they fly over from the states and we shoot them. I wonder know about the red squirrel. The slaughter of greys is almost on a genocidal level is this right?

dont get me wrong, Ive seen loads of reds in the wild, one I got up to 2 ft and they are so pretty but is it right, the greys are here to stay, is it right to persecute them so. Likewise with the ruddy ducks.

I hope my neighbours uncles badgers will be ok, he has a huge sett in his garden, they have dug under his summerhouse. Its sure to collaspe in soon but in the summer we watched the badgers from the roof.

I know he wouldnt let anything happen, he loves the badgers and couldnt give to hoots about his summerhouse. But they do wander out of his small garden. Lets hope they will be OK. At least he is wealthy, and likely to pursue any illegal baiting if he sees it. 

Also we have badgers in a nature reserve in the town where I work, they are on a housing estate. I hope they will be OK to.

posted 153 days ago Dom:

Hi Linda, not on facebook yet, who knows I might in the future.

That article is very revealing into why european countries Whale by the way, and it aint to do with food supply.

Please read it Save me folks. We still have animals and the environemnt to protect. Dont give up :-)

So what now,? the badger cull will continue. Ive already read some sick jokes and disturbing comments on variuos forums.

Im always ready to chat rock Linda, I grew up in a band culture and near the home of metal.

I saw Radiohead at Wolverhampton before they hit the big time. There was about 20 people at the gig! cost me £5 to get in. And then they re-released Creep and BANG! big time

So what now?

posted 153 days ago Linda Adams:

Morning!! Very quick check-in!

@Dom, I fully agree with you on the oceans & the danger we are in, can't STAND whaling, and even worse, shark fin soup - horrific practices.... awful, just awful.

All I meant was a fish is about the only thing I'm aware of the other members of my family would catch, clean, cook and eat IF they had to do it all themselves :) 

Also... Dom dear... me & a couple others chatting on Facebook are wondering if you are there & would like to friend us? Enjoying your company. Find me by "Linda Adams (Page)" (I think I'm the only "Page" Linda Adams) or, /adamszoo for profile ... if it is OK to post that info. If not I understand. Others are more easy to find by their names alone than me. {{One of the posts dropped over the weekend included this info from me - but yes I understand if it should or must be Modd'ed out - not a problem and I hope not to cause anyone any inconvenience.}} We would just like more chitchat time with Dom & the others of you ... & can keep this more to topic if we have elsewhere to yap!! :)

Thanks... over & out... college daughter comes home today, must bake cinnamon rolls! ^_^

posted 154 days ago Dom:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/sTBgaZhr9wuD9CuuCukyCgg/view.m?id=15&gid=environment/2011/dec/14/whalers-won-veteran-activist&cat=environment Not only is whaling inhumane, eating ocean fish could be very bad for you. Read the article. A build up of metals which your body stores and can't shift. And can be passed to offspring. Well worth the read. Bettina more ocean info for you. I really think whaling needs to stop- we just do not know what we are messing with here. I think we will pay a harsh price if we don't. DDT in fish- hmmm- yummy

posted 154 days ago Kula:

Dom

In response to

I still don't understand ( I can guess) why they won't test the culled badgers. It would give an accurate reading into the actual tb levels carried by badgers instead of estimates.

I guess they think they already have a pretty good idea of the prevalence in badgers.

The live test was a badger culling trial performed between 1994 and 1996 where badgers were cage trapped and shot. Badger groups were randomly allocated to test or interim strategies. Badgers were tested using the BROCK ELISA antibody test. The prevalence of TB in badgers culled on the basis of BROCK test positivity was found to be 37.5% and in badgers culled under the interim strategy in the 'no live test' control areas was found to be 34.1%.

I lifted this from the Krebs 1997 report.

posted 154 days ago Dom:

By the way I'm not telling you to cut down on fish, it's of course your choice and I won't begrudge you but please have a look. The beautiful live giving poorly understood ocean often gets overlooked yet it is probably earths mist vital asset. :-) have a good one :-)

posted 154 days ago Dom:

Hi Linda , I actually think eating fish is worse than mammals and birds on an environmental scale. I posted a link on the members threads - ocean mass extinctions - it's titled. So if anything try cutting down on fish. Have a look at the link, it's very worrying and if you like spread the word.

posted 154 days ago Linda Adams:

P.P.S. -- @Dom & crew - - - why on EARTH would they not be testing the culled badgers to see if they were or were not carrying bTB!!!! That is just really, REALLY frustrating news. And to me says yep, people just want to kill things to see them dead. Or that they don't want news letting out that only 1 in 1,000 or less OOPS was actually a carrier.... oh WHOOOOPS I guess Save-Me was right we DIDN'T "Have To" do that.... aaaargh

I shall go now & use my incensed indignation energy over this yet-one-more-idiotic-thing-in-the-Universe to go scrub my boys' toilet. Maybe it will come clean. o_O

grrrrrrrrrumble... 

posted 154 days ago Linda Adams:

oh and.... since we weren't actually moderated for chatting rock history.... anyone want to read my rock & roll poem? here's a public copy... no personal info attached - it will open in plain HTML. http://tinyurl.com/7bwfktu

Call it my Merry Christmas present to you all... I'll leave it up for download thru the holidays... and now I really, REALLY do have to get back to work on holiday cleaning baking and other festivities! Cheers - love to all -- Linda xx

posted 154 days ago Linda Adams:

I keep trying to stay off and get my work done but keep clicking my bookmark now that I've set one :) Cranberry sauce homemade is delish!! and SO EASY. The US is not metric on recipes so I don't know how to convert - but 1 lb-bag fresh cranberries in a saucepan with 1/2 cup Orange juice concentrate, 1/2 Cup apple juice concentrate, and about 1/2 Cup brown sugar, bring to a boil till berries "pop" and look right... & you have a lovely dish that is also semi-OK for diabetics as well. You may use Stevia to sweeten instead of sugar (sweeten to taste) but the pan has to have a little liquid, & the OJ gives it a nice overall flavor. So... using metric... I guess a 1 : 1 : 1 ratio & cranberries to proportion... it is DIFFICULT to mess this one up even for beginning cooks. ^_^

While we're on food, anyone need a chuckle? Here's a sign from a Chinese Restaurant... found this passing 'round FB.... http://t.co/4FOSuMPL

Haha... enjoy!

PS we are not veggie (yet) tho I am sure I could do without, most of the time, once I learned how to nutritionally balance for the proper nutrients. Protein esp is difficult b/c with my hypothyroid, I **should not** have any soy, and that is often the staple replacement in veggie diets. But about the only way my hubby & kids would become veggie would be if they DID have to kill their own meat first.... ha. THAT would be a quick "Never Mind!" I'm sure. (Except for fishing & seafood.... I guess) ... for the holidays tho I do try to splurge on the extra $$ for free range or organic.

Feeding a fam of 8 is expensive as it stands - and menus difficult to plan or do up on the fly - esp when Mum has been ill much of the year :-/  ...but when we can find the sources in price range, I do look for better sources, but can't or don't always follow-through. Esp when dear beloved hubby is doing the shopping :-D but -- he's well worth keeping!!

posted 154 days ago roger goddard:

great story well done

posted 154 days ago Dom:

I still don't understand ( I can guess) why they won't test the culled badgers. It would give an accurate reading into the actual tb levels carried by badgers instead of estimates. In a war against tb as so often stated why won't they do this. It's increibly important possible data which will be ignored. Let's just say it's not the badger, and before the farming community shout me down, let's just say it's not. What then. A pointless cull with a reduction which could be down to the new cattle controls. As the badgers are going to be checked to see if they were killed humanely why not test. If the badgers are as high as Defra say then at least there is some current evidence. Brian is this worth pursuing as Defra and the Bt both avoided this question when I asked. Because I'm not sure there is any other hope for the badgers, because this cull will spread as well as the illegal culling.

posted 155 days ago StevenAult:

Bad news about the badger cull trials then. The farmers have their official scapegoats now. It's not really a pilot at all, it's culling. Christmas for badger baiters and lampers everywhere.

posted 155 days ago Dom:

Mouth watering stuff- great ideas- love curry. Actually the variety in my food has risen not lowered since being veggie. Obviously more veg which is good but perhaps to much cheese, not so good. Recommend cauldron sausages btw

posted 155 days ago Raindance:

@Dom ... a little thread drift and to follow on from the excellent Betina.  I hope the following is of some help to you.

A great deal depends on how much cooking you like to do.  I'm vegetarian not vegan, so eggs and dairy produce do have a place in my menus.  Puddings are easy, but new vegetarians often find the savoury part of a meal the most challenging.  For Christmas lunch, I might serve a vegetable terrine for the first course; nut roast layered with wild mushrooms for the second course with roasted potatoes and vegetables, and various sauces - bread, cranberry (home-made of course) and gravy; Christmas pudding.  This might seem a little heavy on carbohydrates, but I make sure the nut roast has very little breadcrumbs in it.

For the remainder of the holidays, I usually make lots of soups, casseroles, bean things, spinach roulade, cheese souffle, vegetalble pies, stuffed vegetables. 

There are thousands of recipes one might choose, and I would recommend you might look at the Vegetarian Society's website: http://www.vegsoc.org/page.aspx?pid=1323 and I am sure that the Vegan Society will have a recipe bank as well. 

There is absolutely no reason why you should follow a traditional English luncheon menu. You might, for example, make several different curries and other Indian dishes. About half the sub-continent is vegetarian, so there are heaps of dishes from which to choose. 

posted 155 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, about the ducks. IT'S SICKENING!! Who invented impurity? A religion? I'm loosing faith when I read these things, as if we live in the dark middle age.... You are so right, it's natures way.

As for christmas dinner, I plan to buy this:

http://www.ethicalsuperstore.com/products/just-wholefoods/just-wholefoods-organic-falafel-mix-120-g/

They taste really good and are easy to make - also I will make my own sauce too. The rest is ok, potatoes and the other side dishes. Last year I got the whole family to buy free range meat and they loved it... this year out of the blue sky, my mom said she will buy free range or organic meat for christmas dinner again. I think it's a milestone and hope they will continue down that road also when it's not christmas. Let's hope.

But I'm sticking to my organic falafels:) I skipped the idea of a 'baked nut roast' since I'm the only 'veggie' at the table this year.

Never tried a Quorn roast... not sure if they sell it over here. 

posted 155 days ago Linda Adams:

Just popping in for half a sec - happy to hear Mitch that it was a system glitch. I'd sent out an apology to Jen for wandering so far off topic :) & she investigated and let me know. Glad to know that. Thanks for the heads-up.

@Dom, still wish I had a copy of our fun little chat! Should have copy/pasted it or something, as it must be lost forever now, but didn't expect things to vanish, at least, not that much of them anyway. ^_^  

All right, back off & away to Christmas & family duties.... back in after the holidays... but also, glad I hadn't caused offense requiring the heavy moderation. Cheers -- Linda xoxo

posted 155 days ago Dom:

Search out Stuart Leigh if you dislike clarkson and Cameron - he's possibly the most venomous stand up I've seen. Or is it Alan Leigh? Anyway his observations can be cruel but uncomfortably true

posted 155 days ago Dom:

No didn't know that mate- no fan of chubby, prefer clever comedians. Saw Eddie izzard a while back- my fave comedian

posted 155 days ago Dom:

The Americans have red coats to I believe however they run the fox to cover. Can't remember where I read this mind.

posted 155 days ago StevenAult:

Eating what you kill is still pointless hunting if you ask me. Just an excuse to kill for sport. Why don't people just try leaving them alone! These 'animals' have mates, siblings, and their own place in society. Why don't people realise that? There's a 'macho' hunting culture in the US for some reason, yet shooting something is the least manly thing I can think of. Maybe the women should stop dating them, they'd stop then alright. They're trying to live up to the US male stereotype. Killing something is a 'right of passage' over there, and there's strong peer pressure in colleges. The NRA is a powerful organisation too. I think the 'red coats' are a very British thing. Not sure if any other countries have something similar. Dom, Bridlington reminds me a bit of Royston Vasey sometimes. Did you know Royston Vasey is Roy 'Chubby' Brown's real name? They named it after him to take the p**s I think. I'm not a fan of his.

Dom, I usually eat Quorn roast at Christmas. They're great cold with pickles too on boxing day. Threre's egg and milk in though so they're not slaughter free. Make your own mind up whether they're more ethical than chicken or turkey. Apparently Quorn are introducing vegan friendly products now which is mega great news. Try the vegetarian society site, they will have recipe ideas.

posted 155 days ago Dom:

This is our first Christmas as veggies so ..... any ideas?

posted 155 days ago Dom:

http://www.animalaid.org.uk/h/n/CAMPAIGNS/wildlife/ALL/356//

whats your opinion on this article savers? need some imput. is it not natures way now?

posted 155 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

It's okay Mitch, things happens.. but it's a bit odd cause 1 day they were there, next day gone. And I know you like us to stay on topic but to be honest it's nice when we differ, it sort of creating a good flow on here and good bondings too:) 

SAVERS, If you havn't sign this, please do and spread it - we nearly have 1.000.000 signatures!!!!

http://www.8hours.eu/

posted 155 days ago Dom:

It happened in the USA but what happens there usually follows here.

posted 155 days ago Dom:

Also nothing to do with animals but the word must be spread. Go on YouTube and search ' UFC Davis pepperspray ' Watch a cop repeatedly spray students who are on peaceful protest duty. It's a horrendous Act against free speech and liberty. We must never let the uk turn into a police state

posted 155 days ago Dom:

I haven't got f/b although I read zuckerman has this thing going where he only will eat what he kills. So he shot a buffalo or something. I expect he's still eating it. Seriuosly why buffalo? Bit over the top- why not a chicken- how much meat does a man need?

posted 155 days ago StevenAult:

You do get some wierd comments on the Save Me facebook page, even by campaigners. I'll stick to this forum I think. I'll let you off Mitch if it was technical. 

posted 155 days ago Mitch (Save-Me Moderator):

Hi Guys,

So sorry but we seem to have had a technical hitch over the weekend from the 9th - 12th as a result of a server changeover..........it was not due to heavy moderating, I promise!

We're really sorry that your words and thoughts weren't published during this period.

Many thanks

Mitch

posted 155 days ago Dom:

Actually raindance I know what ' country' people they are trying to attract. The tweed brigade, the toff wanabies who probably come from the city anyway. And think hunting is what countrylife is all about. Probably can't tell difference between an oak or beech. And I could be generalising who knows. Its another world to me, one I'm glad I have no part. Certantly nothing like the country life my dad and grandparents came from. Although their house would have made many a rich person jealous. Very old black and White beam with about 15 rooms and acres of land. Would be mine to someday if me nan hadn't run off with a younger con man. Such is life. We don't actually know where my nan is buried either, how's that for a tale of deceit and woe.

posted 155 days ago Raindance:

Dom, I don't know what the owner of the hotel means either - it's a bizarre stand to take, but then there are two sides to hunting.  Some people see it as a "sport" (as well as a source of food) and others see it as utter barbarism.  The simple fact is that someone shot a beautiful animal for no reason than, apparently, sport and has had his head preserved and mounted as a trophy.  It seems the hotel has received a number of threats.  I can appreciate that emotions may run quite high about these matters, but I wonder whether threats are really helpful. 

posted 155 days ago Dom:

This news story is awlful and the arrogance involved. Karma will come a calling.

http://www.league.org.uk/news/1032/Hunting

posted 156 days ago Dom:

could be my fault to?

Still it seems a bit heavy handed-other forums have far worse on them

Snow white stoat-nice one.

Urghh-Christmas-sorry but Im a grinch-just work work work, miserable people, fights in car parks, complaints and very little Christmas spirit. Anyone want to work in the retail sector for the next two weeks, swop ya!

posted 156 days ago Newt:

I hate snow and hail! Saw a snow white stoat though!

Come here for a break and to see what Judi has to say to me today and 2 days of posts have gone!

If that's my fault, I'm sorry everyone. Furthermore I'm sorry if I have made you fed up Judi, i really am - I admire you very much and wouldn't want to see you upset.

Okay, on that note, have a good Christmas everyone, and take care, I'm off for a bit.

Newt

posted 156 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Yeah, what's happening? Many were quite neutral.... and we havn't been on topic for days anyway, so can we have them back and a mods 'lifted finger' instead, please? Much better than deleting randomly and without any explanations. 

posted 156 days ago StevenAult:

Was it a technical hitch? I'm not investing time and effort writing on here if posts are just going to dissapear without good reason.

posted 156 days ago Judi Hewitt:

Where have my last three emails gone? it really does stink of something underhand going on when emails that are not threatening or insulting BUT FACTUAL are removed - I need to know before I put this possible bias on my website.

It is bad enough that Newt is getting it all his own way, saying just what he likes, even though he is not correct most of the time.

Really fed up!!

Judi (Hewitt)

posted 156 days ago Dom:

No idea what that's suppose to mean raindance. All sounds a bit Royston varsty to me, or like the wicker man. Oh well the owner doesn't want city dollar - I'm sure the city will sleep tonight. Funny how these sort of places are happy to take the cash but not the people eh? Think alot of these posts got deleted- thanks for apology newt. It wasn't a lane though, but the main road through snowdonia, I know to well what country lanes are like, you can rarely see what's coming and people drive far to fast, although as judi said it can be the locals to- something again on the same break I can attest to. Infect I bet his tire marks are still in the Conwy valley. Fortunately all was ok. Also that holiday we got barged off the road by a big family car and got stuck in a ditch. So drivers are either good or bad doesn't matter where from. Didn't have much joy that week! Sterling moss once said ' you can't yell a person they are a bad lover... Or a bad driver' Steve - the electric car - not sure it's the answer due to the vast energy requirements. The energy crisis is probably more desperate than the food one as blackouts are predicted by 2015. In the uk we don't have enough power generated and from the government says haven't got enough time to build them. Hence the fracking debacle which when they dispose of this planning permission act thingy means landowners like our newt here will have very little say if a large corporation wants to start frackkng. I'd google it and newt id look into it so you are prepared

posted 156 days ago Raindance:

It's an awful conclusion to a terrible story, Mark.  I am not quite sure whether I go along with the "loan" of the Emperor's head, but it generally isn't considered polite to assume that someone is being economical with the truth.  I expect the true story will come out eventually.  

I would also be interested to learn what the owner means by describing her hotel as a "country hotel for country people".  I have spent most of my life in the countryside - in the real countryside and not on the outskirts of some city or town.  Would that qualify me to stay at that hotel? Probably, except that I don't shoot or hunt.  

posted 156 days ago mark williams:

Sorry for the but-in I'm on my mobile this evening but I found this page on the bbc web site. Do you remember the story about emperor the stag. Well it would seem that his head could have turned up gracing a wall. Even if it's not the same stag lets hope that someone has the decency to bury it soon. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-16138993

posted 156 days ago Linda Adams:

@Dom thanks for fun conversation, enjoyed getting to know you some better, & grateful to find now Steven, plus Betina, Helena, Wende', & Chris J on FB, Helena especially has become a fast friend & kindred spirit. 

@Kris C, nice to meet you and welcome, I haven't seen you before. :)  happy posting!

@Judi, I do agree, killing one species to protect another is flat-out wrong, be it one or another squirrel species or the racial or cultural genocides which (not exactly species, but equally merciless) have happened in our history books and are simply horrific. Or the wiping out to extinction (or near extinction) many species gone forever from this planet, for no better reason than sport.

And, is the basic premise for Save-Me campaigning against the badger cull to "help" eliminate a disease in cattle-- and badgers, as is patiently & fully explained on this site, are not at all proven to be responsible for--and a cull is further likely *not* to "protect" cattle, but will backfire biologically.

@Steven, serious note, also overlooked when discusssing slavery, the industrial revolution, etc esp. re: the Civil War in the US, is that from that tragic, completely rephrensible and inhumane practice of slave ships came both the beautiful hymn "Amazing Grace," and African-American folk music, born out of their sufferings... which became the blues.... which heavily influenced Led Zeppelin among many others... so while I have "drifted away" to much rock & roll over the years, neither can I in any way shape or form condone the evils of slavery and its terrible consequences, which are still felt to this day. Yet out of this dark, heinous period filled with pollutions of both earth and soul, we have the silver linings of amplifiers, light bulbs, toilets, hot running water, the internet, and good people collecting to rally around Save-Me.  

Many things of action, equal & opposite reaction, cause & effect and consequence my little brain cannot begin to understand. What we have is now--where and who we are--and what can be done about it *today.* And how to create, today, a better brighter tomorrow for all the planet, all species. This is why I come here. Which all told... there is not much I can do. Yet in joining the cause, I've been blessed to meet several new friends and voices, and truly enjoy the viewpoints, info & education offered here by all.

Also, must give an over & out... the holidays & much family excitement and gatherings are upon me, and I may not be back in much till January or so.

My heart is with you all throughout the season!  Hugs to all. Signing off for a bit - Linda xx

posted 156 days ago kris canvin:

brian may is the best for the animals

posted 156 days ago kris canvin:

fox hunting is bang out of order!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

posted 159 days ago Judi Hewitt:

killing one species to protect another NEWT is wrong!!!

posted 160 days ago Dom:

Bit off topic but my Mum came back from Germany in Sept, a big meat eating country yet she said she saw not one (no exageration) animal in any of the fields. Are the animals all in factories or something?Why would this be?

UP THE ZEP! :-)

posted 160 days ago Dom:

She deserves every sympathy, definately the better half :-)

actually may I point out no Led Zepplin then possibly we might not have Queen and hence no Brian May making 'Save Me'.

Your lucky to see a Cumbrian up in Cumbria now, think Ive met about 3 in my years going up Lakes mate.

posted 160 days ago Newt:

I would love to meet Mrs Dom, poor woman has my every sympathy:-)))

But one thing, sadly - although I would be honoured to be called one - I am not a Cumbrian.

posted 160 days ago Newt:

Well if you gave us Led Zepplin, then everything is forgiven!

Twas but a cheap joke Lad tha knows!

posted 160 days ago Dom:

Yes but Steve, we also gave the world Led Zepplin!

From the fire came one of the biggest musical revolutions ever-the sound of METAL!

Metallica would not exist if Lars Ulrich hadnt stopped over in Stourbridge to see Diamond head those years ago.And Heavy metal music despite what some think has always been a fore front of politcal opinions and has raged against wrong doings for 4 decades. Just listen to Master Of Puppets by Metallica.

Also we have Elgar and of course Tolkein wrote much of the LOTRs around these parts. I would have imagined Brum to look like Isenguard in its day.

The industrial revolution though did bring alot of benefits, tiolets, sewage systems, Rail travel, bridges which didnt collaspe!

Post WW2 the countryside changed more in Britain in 50 years than the previous 1000 so I guess it was very localised pollution.

And lest us forget who made huge quantites of the engines, parts and bullets that kept  Nazi Germany at bay.

If we had been picking berries , running around in druid outfits and without the vast Empire Britain had and her colonies, Germany would have steam rolled us. 

Im not saying its all good but its not black and white.

posted 160 days ago StevenAult:

Dom, the industrian revolution kick-started the destruction of the planet and led to the exploitation of the working classes! They were persecuted just as badly as black and Asian people overseas. People overlook that when discussing slavery etc. Was the industrial revolution a good thing for people and the planet? I'd be foraging for berries and mushrooms right now if it was'nt for that, or fighting rival tribesmen anyway. Actually it sounds a bit dodgy does'nt it? I'm a midlander too, from Warwickshire. PWEI? I do have some of their albums. Just returned to facebook, anyone want to be friends? I'm cold and lonely! poor me. 

posted 160 days ago Dom:

and just as another note I have rung the church bells where John Bonham is buried, and my uncle got married in that same church. And you would never find it as it is right in the heart of Worcestershire countryside, a beautiful spot to watch the sunset.

posted 160 days ago Dom:

On a side note LInda, I share the same birthday as john lennon and my best mate shares Freddy Mercury's date to.

posted 160 days ago Dom:

Eh Newt I hope you aint taking the michael out of the proud Black Country, might be yim yams but they are the foundation of the Empire. London had the paperwork but it was the midlands which provided the steel, the bolts and nuts, ammo whihc gave birth to the largest Empire this world has ever known. Mrs. Dom will be coming to have words with you :-)

'Black by Day, Red by Night' is how Birmingham was described in its manufacturing days

Bloody Hardcore us Midlanders are, ask Brian, who invented Heavy Metal. Its not every town you can serve Robert Plant doggy poo bags and lay a drumstick down at Jon Bonhams grave.

As PWEI said 'Midlander-There can be only one!'

posted 160 days ago Linda Adams:

@Betina -- I failed to acknowledge -- I think it's VERY cool you have four children.... and especially knowing ahead an epidural was likely never going to be available....

I've been grateful for my LaMaze training over the years, it's come in handy for other emergency pain situations as well.

Still.... hugs ...! Proud of you! :-)

posted 160 days ago Newt:

Judi,

Shout a bit louder the last of the red squirrels can't hear you, they're too far north of you now, or is that the squirrel pox clogging their tiny ears?

Its okay guys, you can die out now, Judi thinks we shouldn't help! Bye-bye!

posted 160 days ago Linda Adams:

@Newt, LOL that was funny. Thanks for the chuckle this CA morning :) .... catch you all later! :)

posted 160 days ago Linda Adams:

*** In need of "edit" button again... :-)... text-only is difficult - hope I'm making any sense...

"what is really important" -- meaning - to me, to my own life - is *this* family.... mine. Of course -- everyone's own life is important. Every family. Every soul. Every small or large creature - to me - has meaning, function, purpose, reason. Somewhere. Even if I can't fathom it all or understand very much of the world - I try. And if I didn't feel that way - that all life has value and should be honored, protected, held sacred... well, then I wouldn't be here posting, would I?  :-)

hugs - Linda xo

posted 160 days ago Newt:

Dom, If having the name Catbells is sufficient grounds to reintroduce Lynx to the Cumbrian Fells then perhaps Wolverhampton is sufficient reason to reintroduce wolves to that town and Oxford should have wild Oxen and Dudley should have Duds - whoops too late!

posted 160 days ago Linda Adams:

@Betina .... aw.... unfair ... when the technology exists, that in your country you have to be Royal to have an epidural. But see..... this is ... just like the unfairness of the fact I have internet, gas heat, running water and sanitation and 3rd world countries have none of these. (uh... and probably shouldn't get into feminine sanitation I take for granted that women in these countries also have no access to) 

Aw that's a whole 'nother can of worms tho....

Um and actually, I'm almost afraid to confess this here but I have six happy children. and LOVE having a large family. Ages 21 to 9, all one marriage to one wonderful loyal faithful terrific man. :-)

I - just don't want that cold-water backsplash that I've been too busy overpopulating the planet!!! Yes - I do know how that happens -- and they *were* all on-purpose, thanks!

Life is a wonderful adventure. Some days - I do forget that and the joy seems to drain out of everything. Like this morning... not only today the anniversary of John Lennon's tragic death - but then waking to hear Dobie Gray passed away... was a very sad moment ... tho of course never met him, I surely have enjoyed "Drift Away" so, so very much over the years - that bit of light is now gone over to that other mysterious side we can't see.

Then - I look at my wonderful family, husband and children and remember this is what I'm really all about - what is really important - is this microcosm he and I have created on this earth ... to raise up these souls into hopefully happy adults that won't need toooooo much therapy when they're 35.

:-)

Hope we are all having a happy-enough holiday season! hugs all around -- Linda xxxo

posted 160 days ago Newt:

George,

Just some of my spellings like chihauhau, not very good at spelling, as you know!

The doing nothing is a choice, many people confuse conservation with doing nothing. If we do that, everything is taken over by weeds. Neglect is not conservation. Conservation is about protecting weaker species. Said it before, I'll say it again!

Okay I will take your word for it that wolves are cautious of man by instinct. Probably with very good cause! And yes I too have read that there has never been a reported case of wolves attacking man. How true that is I don't know! However there are many cases of wolves attacking farm animals and so, even if you are correct on every other point, I still don't think that they should be reintroduced.

posted 160 days ago George:

Newt,

I'm delighted you have some knowledge on canids, whether you had to look any of it up though I don't know, that's irrelevent anyway.

You've looked into what I said a little too much. Yes, technically dogs are wolves, and dogs kill pets on ocassion, and more than wolves. I think you know this wasn't what I meant though. There are very few recorded cases of wild wolf attacks on human pets, or even humans for that matter - of which there are none recorded in any scientific journal (unless my records of 2005 are outdated). This is for the reason I stated of their intense fear of humans.

You make an interesting point on species interbreeding. The definition of a species is a group of animals able to interbreed to produce fertile offspring. Whether this definition applies to the different species of sheep you stated I don't know. I do know that species within a genus have often interbred, despite being different species. This has to be the case else evolution could not have happened. Of course as a result science is constantly changing and adapting to new discoveries in classification and taxonomy. For example the red wolf, Canis rufus is considered by some to be a cross between wolves and coyotes. As it can breed to produce successfully to produce fertile offspring this is now considered a distinct species.

I don't like the "doing nothing is a choice" analogy. No it isn't. That's like saying me sitting here typing this instead of killing somebody is a choice. Sure it is, but you're stretching the boundaries of the meaning of 'choice'. Interfering in nature, at least in my opinion, is not a choice. Its not an option. You just don't do it. If you do do it, you're THEN making a choice, to do something that will likely result in detriment.

You already know where I stand on the red squirrel debate. All I can say is that the greys are thanking you for not inflicting death on them all for your own species' mistakes.

You're somewhat incorrect that avoiding man is a learnt behaviour. A wolf that has not encountered man in its entire life will still utterly fear one if encountered. Its ingrained now. Genetic. Hard-wired. Whatever you want to call it. So much so that if you walked up to a den site of wolf pups with the parents within sight, you could take the pups out and walk off unscathed. In-fact many biologists have done this. Wolves will always fear man, unless there is absolutely dramatic long-term change in the way humans interact with wolves (hunting etc.)

By the way you're damn right - intuition, experience and self knowledge often trump science. Despite the progress of science we should always remain instinctual and savvy in the world. 90% of what I've learnt about dogs has been from observing them amongst each other. No need for science. No need for books. Just a keen eye for learning.

posted 160 days ago Judi Hewitt:

Yes Betina, the monitoring went well - we (there were five of us on this occasion - four from Cheshire came over to help) One of the Cheshire crew got the hounds on film chasing a fox into a wood. She never saw the fox come back out so don't know what happened to it? I'm back on my own for a while now - but I always say, if I am in the right place at the right time, then I'll have the hunt. I've just bought a new video camera with an excellent zoom too, so here's hoping.

posted 160 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I do not believe for one minute that animals need to be controlled. Any animal that gets out of control like rats, is without doubt the fault of man. Shooting animals is just one big excuse to enjoy using guns. The only animal out of control on this planet, is us!!!!

Oh how I hate it when shooters say they are conservationists. Own up you shooters - it's killing for fun!

posted 160 days ago Judi Hewitt:

Have you ever seen how a mother cat takes care of her young? When on holiday some years ago I left some food out for this very skinny mother cat and her kittens. This mum did not touch any of the food until all her babies had eaten most of it, then she tucked in to the left over scraps. I did worry about these cats when I got back home to the UK. The point is, animals are not so different from us if you take the trouble to observe them properly. Being kind and compassionate costs nothing and might just reward you one day.

posted 160 days ago Judi Hewitt:

RED SQUIRRELS WILL NEVER HAVE ANY CHANCE OF MAKING A PROPER COMEBACK, DESPITE THE GREYS. I SAY LEAVE THE GREYS ALONE - THEY ARE NOT THE MAIN REASON FOR THE RED SQUIRREL DECLINING. MUCH STRONGER BLACK SQUIRRELS ARE SAID TO BE ON THE INCREASE - NO DOUBT THEY WILL BE KILLED ONE DAY TO PROTECT THE GREYS.

GIVE ME STRENGTH AGAINST MANKINDS STUPIDITY.

posted 161 days ago Dom:

And no one answered me question on lynxes .

posted 161 days ago Dom:

R u sure it's real fur steve?

posted 161 days ago StevenAult:

I did see most of frozen planet but do they really need to wear fur trim on their coats? I fail to see how real fur on the hood has any real benefits over mock fur. I also saw an interview with boxer Amir Khan the other day and he was wearing a fur coat. Think of the influence he has fashion wise. I think Chinese and Russian demand for fur is penetrating the UK market, while immigration is creating a demand for fur here. It's a worrying development. Anybody else noticed an increase in fur coats? People are becoming more selfish and shallow in the UK.    

posted 161 days ago Newt:

George,

I like much of what you say in your last post and agree with you on much of it. A couple of things that I would like to pick up on, not disagreeing exactly, well you'll see.

As I understand it, a species is defined as a group of animals that can only interbreed within that group (paraphrasing). However, this definition often breaks down, for example in sheep, the domestic sheep Ovis aries will interbreed with just about every wild cousin, Ovis musimon, O. annon, O. canadaensis, O. vignei, O. orientallis. All these wild species of sheep will also interbreed with all other wild species, but in reality they don't naturally because of the vast distances that separate them, only when kept in captivity do they interbreed.

Anyway, I digress; Canis lupus (the wolf) and Canis lupus familiaris (the domestic dog) a subsect of the wolf are both genetically almost identical (as is M. bovis and M. tuberculosis coincidentally) and are often more than capable of interbreeding. [Although physical differences in breeds of Canis lupus familiaris can make it impossible for them to breed fully between members of their own species sometimes, such as Great Dane and Chihauhau.] My point is that genetically the walls of this classification are somewhat blurred. One sees the same behaviour traits in both species, for example, although these have, as you rightly say, been modified in C. familiaris. Other members of the Canis group also display similiar behavioural patterns, such as C. latrans as you note. Species such Vulpes vulpes (the red fox) also share similiar behavioural patterns.

In other words: How do you know that all wolves don't eat pets and that they can smell man on them and avoid them?

Every single one of the Canis family can learn to avoid man, as can Vulpes vulpes, they can all also learn to live alongside man and benefit from that coexistence too, if it is of benefit to them. Urban foxes, feral dogs, dingos, cyote etc

There are many examples of wolves living on the edges of human society. It is believed that wolves living alongside human beings are the fore runner of the very first human/animal relationship, that of domestic dogs. Unfortunately after 15,000 years of domestication, dogs can and do still kill all sorts of other species.

Therefore, one can only conclude that Canis lupus as a species can and will kill domestic pets. By definition, Canis lupus and all its sub sects can and will kill all domestic pets. While I agree that many individual packs have learnt to avoid man, this is a learnt behaviour and like all learnt behaviours it can be forgotten, just as easily.

Okay leaving that one aside the other point I would like to make is that you are absolutely right when you mark out one of the differences between myself and the rest of you is that none of you believe that man should be managing the environment. I have not however said that man should be managing the environment, or should not! I am saying that man IS managing the environment. whether you like it or not!

I am managing my own environment and the choices that I make affect all those species that share my environment. I admit it. I do my best and sometimes I get it wrong!

However - each and every one of you would like to be managing the environment too!

Oh yes you would!

Not doing something is a management choice just as important as doing something! Not doing anything for red squirrels was the biggest mistake I ever made in conservation terms!

Your problem is that you don't agree with the choices that others make:-) Which presupposes that you know better:-) And perhaps you do, in some cases, and perhaps you don't :-)

Please note I am not judging you, just telling it straight!

Dom, 

I didn't see much of the "Frozen Planet" but I did see a bit where they were filming a waterfall breaking up and the scientist said it would happen in two days (and the whole town went on alert) and the man who had lived by the river all his life said next week, and guess who was right?

Laugh! I nearly wet myself! Love it!

Once again experience wins over science! hehehehehehehehehehe!

"Yeah I get it wrong sometimes" he chuckled "1984, that year I got it wrong!"

hehehehehehehehehehe!

Yeah I get things wrong, and not just in 1984, but all the time, and the more I learn, the more I realise I don't know. But I do okay and my environment is brilliant - bloody cold at the moment and wet, but it is fine thanks and we don't need any wolves here thanks.

Take care

Newt

PS Linda and Betina

There is nothing more important or difficult or rewarding than bringing up children! I have sacrificed so much for mine, but don't regret any of it! Even when as adults they shout or swear at me sometimes, I still love them to bits! Couldn't eat a whole one though! Joke! 

posted 161 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

"Dear beats the S**T out of a hunter"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjBVg0oNgVk

posted 161 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Sorry, it's ' ...I don't know how they invest'...

Dom,

The wolf on the front cover this month? It must mean something;)

posted 161 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, I'm with you on the shareholder issue - it's a problem and I will make a thread on it soon. I have made a note about it before but I think it drowned. It's quite disturbing cause they now invest big time in agricultural products, creating a forced market.... stockpiling etc..  Well, of topic but keep an eye on the thread section if you're interested.

You mention Microsoft and as the big comp. it is I don't down how they invest but I have to point out that Mr. Gates seems to be exstremely generous as a private person. Look here - and he's done a whole lot more that this:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1247067/Bill-Gates-makes-worlds-largest-charitable-6bn-vaccines-poor-children.html

Linda:) Yep, 4 kids here too.... and all natural births. Epidural here in DK is not that easy to get. Unless you're royal.....? I felt I deserved it the 4th time, ha ha. But nope.

posted 161 days ago Dom:

And guess what is on the cover of this months Wildlife magazine...The  Wolf!

posted 161 days ago Dom:

Blimey I leave you lot alone and ya back to wolves! haha!

Well how about the Lynx, they are endangered, they are very shy and not to different from the Wildcat already in Scotland. I think this more probable.

And Newt as a Cumbrian? Is not one of your own most famous fells named after wildcats... Catbells?

Surely a lYnx's footprint would be no more notacable than a foxes?

Anyway-one thing I will mention is that 99% of the reasons why for anything ever is money.

Shareholders seem to be the new governing power behind everything. Its always about the shareholders, not the customers, not the people but keeping a bunch of investers happy. If you want to loook at why the recession is in place, google shareholders.

Also I hope Frozen Planet was viewed by all, it should be compulsory viewing at school.

And they should also be compulsory offering conservation GCSEs now. 

Finally these enclosures are all some species have left, we try and protect the habitats but sometimes its nigh on impossible.

Ill jump back to Rwandas Mountain gorillas for a second. Even with the exposure they have from Diane Fossey and others like Attenborough they are still under threat from land encroachment , war and poaching. The gorrillas survived a civil war though where westerners were kicked out of Rwanda so there is hope but in some countries they are so unstable that it is a fight for human survival, let alone a species.

Personally I think with the money some corpartions have, like Microsoft, Like Tescos they should beheld more accountable and Have to do stuff, like help 3rd world countries, endangered species, starving kids.

There charites are rarely more than a PR factor and to be honest they probably cause more suffering than they stop. They donate money to one cause but think how many other people are affected by them. Maybe Im wrong, but again it comes down to shareholders and pleasing them.

posted 161 days ago Linda Adams:

Excellent answer, Betina. I hadn't thought of birth when I was pondering yesterday. I've experienced both natural birth (no relief) and an epidural however and I can tell you from experience - of the sincere depth of gratitude I have for modern anesthetics!! I did feel a sense of empowerment having gone through natural childbirth, proving I could survive it -- (um - to clarify - this was not my first choice either, but the circumstances, and the hospital's/doctors attending - so... I'm not THAT much the earth-mothery hippie type who *intended* from the get-go to for it without painkillers) ...

However... once given the choice (child #4), HALLELUJAH that such a thing as an epidural has been invented. I found that process - relieved of most of the trauma and pain - much more satisfying overall than my "natural" childbirth experiences. :-)

And, even with an epidural, there is still the suffering of healing, the suffering of pregnancy itself, to bring a child into the world. Which - I have found personally, parenting to be the greatest work as a human being I have ever undertaken. And yes - there is necessary suffering and sacrifice involved in all the years following the birth of one's child, raising them to - hopefully - a satisfying and replenishing adulthood, to go out in society and become who they were born to be.

All right, back to wolves.... apologies for the digression... :)

posted 161 days ago George:

Newt,

I think its important to point out that, were humans not here (UK) then wolves would benefit the ecosystem. This is of course why they were here in the first place, and the reason we used to have a much healthier ecosystem and biodiversity.

Is it necessary to reintroduce wolves back into an ecosystem they once benefited? Well I'm sure you've seen examples such as Yellowstone, where the answer is yes. They shouldn't have been removed in the first place and their reintroduction has aided biodiversity significantly, as well as encouraging the world to embrace wolves thus potential for more reintroduction projects.

Yes, wolves killing bison does benefit the bison significantly. They weed out the weakest and oldest, thus stengthening the bison herds both in short and long term evolutionary terms. Even killing the young benefits the bison. This is what has allowed them to evolve defence mechanisms and both maternal and herd protectionism of the young. Of course, the wolf evolves at the same time and both populations remain relatively stable - which is very important to ecosystems.

I find your suggestion that we have the responsibility of managing the wildlife here quite worrying. Again this tends towards a human-dominance model that I, nor anyone else here I think believes in. We have no place in managing nature, nature is much better at regulating itself than we could ever imagine being. 'Humaneness' in managing a species is also not our place to say. There were wolves here before us that hunted the deer - are you saying that us coming in and wiping the wolves out to then 'manage' the deer populations ourselves is a humane thing? Is it even morally right? I'd say no to both questions.

But again I think we both understand that humans are the problem when it comes to wolf reintroduction in the UK. Its just it seems your arguments have crossed over a little into whether its the right thing to do in any way.

And no, wolves rarely eat pets. They fear humans to the point that the scent of a human on a pet 5 miles away would probably make them completely avoid it. Urban coyotes however, similar to urban foxes, have been known to kill pets. This is due to, as it is here, humans attracting the species closer and closer, thus desensitising them to human presence. They're Canis latrans where wolf is Canis lupus so you're not far off...

posted 162 days ago Newt:

Wise words Betina.

Yes birth is a necessary pain - I hadn't thought of that - but it isn't necessary to make it too painful. And yes I am just a man, no I haven't experienced it myself, sorry it was just a generalisation based on the many births that I have been part of...

posted 162 days ago Newt:

Is it necessary for the wolf to kill to survive? Yes

Can it do it in any other way? No: therefore, without condoning such sickening suffering, one can accept that for that wolf, this was necessary suffering both for itself and the calf.

Does it benefit the bison? No.

 Maybe there is a benefit to the bison that got away, in that they survived. Maybe they were lucky; maybe they were stronger and faster; or maybe that calf was sick...So the species evolves...perhaps the calf was infectious and its death marks the end of the disease [wouldn't that be great?].

Is it necessary for us to unlesh this level of suffering by reintroducing wolves into the wild in a place from where they have gone? No - there are more humane ways of dealing with other species that we do have here and that we do have responsibility for.

Also: They would not target sick deer if slower easier prey were at hand, like domestic species that have not been bred for their running speed or pets (yes wolves eat these if they can) or wild cats or the eggs and young of ground nesting birds (hen harriers for example). This would upset the balance that we currently have. Then there is a small risk to people... So what benefit do we gain? None that I can see. Is this then a necessary suffering that we put on the animals or people in the area the wolf was reintroduced into?

NO

However, put wolves into a natural reserve and make sure that they are well looked after (and protected from abuse) and the amount of suffering that they have themselves (when sick) and the balance shifts. Is the suffering (in that they are in effect imprisoned) necessary? Well perhaps it is, if this protects the species from becoming extinct...But it is not a good argument.

A better argument would be to leave them where they are and try and protect the area that they are in and keep people and livestock out if possible. But who are we to tell others how to live in their own countries, if we can't live like that ourselves?

posted 162 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

You seem to forget the red thread here.

We've talked about wether animals can kill for fun.... and that even though they just kill for food it's extremely brutal when a predator kill its prey. And so Newt said a clean shot from those who "maintain" wildlife would be better than having wolfs around.... and better to kill a calf quick and esay instead of it being torn apart by wolfs.

So Linda, necessary suffering and deaths would be for predators to survive .... and well, giving birth or having certain illnesses where you just have to go through pain before getting better or well.

But Newt, I do agree with you on the matter about keeping people alive far too long... it would be best if we had laws on our rights to die a worthy death, to end our life with dignity and in peace.....

posted 162 days ago Newt:

Ah that is the million dollar question! And one on which everyone will have a different answer. It always easier to see one's own problems, than those of another.

posted 162 days ago Linda Adams:

Ending unnecessary suffering ... brings to this English major's mind the point - OK then, what is NECESSARY suffering...? hm.... sigh :)

I've finally bookmarked this page in my browser & wandering in more. But still a bit lost as the conversation turns - beg pardon - but I do think posing the above question has some merit in the debate.

All around me of late it seems all I see is suffering- from global level problems to these UK countryside issues to individual families and their personal heartaches. I don't know how to solve anything.

Frustrating. Trying not to let it get me down.

Carry on...

posted 162 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

And Newt, I don't think you have to worry about the wolfs, they will not come back, not even in protected areas, in my opinion.... so we might think of them as a creature of a fable - a beautiful one and erase the modern picture of evil wolfs.

posted 163 days ago Newt:

Betina,

I like that. Yes indeed. I'll join you in that general sentiment I want to end all unnecessary suffering and deaths too.

posted 163 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

To suffer or not to suffer - I guess what we want to end is UNNECESSARY suffering and deaths.

Caused by hunting

Caused by trained dogs

Caused by hunger

Caused by diseases

Caused by accidents

Caused by will

Caused by rich countries

Caused by man

posted 163 days ago Dom:

One last thing I promise is that I don't think wolves would work unless they were in a reservation, in Scotland anyhow. But by this note should Australia wipe out it alligators, Africa it's lions and India it's elephants because they conflict with man and damage farm land as well as livestock? We ask the third world to do this as they have so many important but very dangerous species but like I say often, we r hypocrites as we have wiped out bears, wolves and some people shoot foxy. Is this right? Think back to the fuss made about that stuffed toy tiger, the swat team , helicopters come out right? Now what would an African farmer think when he has real lions after his stock and we tell them to deal with it nore or less

posted 163 days ago Dom:

One more thing-sorry- newt , I disagree that wildlife management is recreational. It's unlikely I'll ever see the mountain gorillas in Rwanda but I care what happens to them. These species all have their jobs in nature which affects us. I use to hate wasps but after studying and learning about them they r rather important.

posted 163 days ago Dom:

I will add that I saw the deer culling on autumn watch steve and I question how effective one man is and the time taken. The important thing a wolf or predator does isnot the kill but the movement of herbivores. They move them on much like I'd imagine newt you do field rotation for grazing cattle. A very different angle to humanhunting which just seems to kill and most is sport. Infact according to the same program that is why the deer r still there. It's a horrid way to die, by wolf, bear, I do not dispute that but at least the bison had a chance, it could of killed the wolf. But nature has designed these creatures this way. The difference for me is thus, this is nature , this is suppose to happen. But hunting with dogs in this age is human whim where the hunter goes out to inflict that pain. That's the difference for me, nature and sport. The motive behind them and intent is what separates the issue for me. Also it's bloody unfair on the fox, outnumbered.

posted 164 days ago Newt:

Betina,

I was simply telling you a true story. What I did not say was that I do or do not endorse the child's words. Actually, for the record, I do not. She is young, and naive and has a lot to learn of the way the world works and was simply expressing a raw emotion. No it was the father who was wrong, if anything. One does not know if the fox had returned to get the other hens...

As for children in Africa, I have sponsored children in Africa for years. Only one or two I admit, but then I don't have much money, but I give quite a high percentage of my income to others. So I do what I can.

As for shooting people who are sick - no; but I feel that we keep people alive far too long and make them suffer far too much in this country. I speak as someone who has lost three good friends this autumn and once had to make a joint descision to switch off my father's life support.

So on these issues I remain consistent and believe that it is always right to prevent suffering in any form where ever we encounter it. If you find that strange, then so be it; I make no apology.

posted 164 days ago Newt:

Sorry Steve our posts must have crossed in the post!

Absolutely agree with you Steve on every single point here!

I have never, nor would I ever kill for revenge. I might (have never done so yet) kill a predator that keeps returning to the same spot to kill and kill again, if my livelihood rested on it. While you would be quite right to say that the animal was simply hunting on its own territory, my home happens to be right in the centre of quite a few territories and they very rarely do bother me. So if we had an animal that was persisting in hunting here in that way...well I might consider it's time was up.

Never have yet though...

To me, that is survival of the fittest. But never for fun, or revenge or sport or fun. No not me. Not my way.

posted 164 days ago Newt:

You make some fair points Dom and I am not here to argue for hunting, no indeed not, but I just don't understand your logic sometimes. It is  a very fine line that you draw. On the one hand it is okay for a wolf to rip apart a live bison, on the other it is wrong to allow a dog to rip apart a live fox or badger. Surely there is no difference for the poor thing being ripped apart?

The  point I'm making is that the only way wolves could hunt like that here, is if we choose to let them. There are no wolves left in the wild here. So if we choose to let them, why? To control deer? Or foxes and badgers? Would that be fair to those species?

There are better ways to do that; by which I mean more humane and more accurate.

Oh yeah it would be great to see wild wolves running in the snow here - but that is purely a personal emotion. What is the difference between someone allowing dogs to rip mammals apart for hunting or for "wildlife management" when both are for recreational purposes?.

Actually Dom, no offence, but I'd like to hear what Steve has to say on this; he started this thread off and then has kept out of it. Come on Steve, you said that shooting deer was wrong and that we should reintroduce wolves, you told us about seeing the Frozen Planet thing about wolves. Tell me, please, what is the difference between a wolf introduced because you think it right, ripping open a live deer and a pack of hounds ripping open a live deer because someone else wants to hunt them?

For the deer? I mean.

Or Judi, you seemed to endorse the idea; come on, what's the difference?

posted 164 days ago StevenAult:

I don't think many foxes are actually killed by farmers Judi. I think it's the dreaded gamekeepers that are responsible for most of the killing. Reading all the info in the newsfeed was certainly worrying. These fox hunters really are a nasty piece of work. They are at odds with farmers anyway because they create artificially high fox numbers so they have plenty to hunt. I think the hunting act has given them a large chip on their shoulder and made them even more sadistic. I think Mr Cameron has a distorted, narrow minded view of the world. I don't know why I was surprised when I learned of his close friendship with Jeremy Clarkson. I don't think it's possible to re-introduce wolves to the UK. There's too much human activity now and not really enough wilderness for that. There's a big difference though between a wild 'animal' catching it's prey and a load of 'jumped up' little Hitlers on horses killing for sport. Newt, what's the point of shooting a fox for killing a pet chicken? What does this type of revenge solve? Will it bring back the chicken? If farmers want fewer foxes then they should oppose fox hunting. They're the ones encouraging breeding by all accounts. Farmers should'nt fall for the 'pest control' propaganda spewed by the 'red coats'.   

posted 164 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

That was quite upsetting reading, your note there, Newt. My heart is pounding!!!!

The girl? Who made her hate foxes? Aren't we feed with hate and revenge. Do we naturally has this urge? I don't think so, if I was that girl and one of my pets were killed the first thing I would be busy doing would be grieving, crying my eyes out for the loss I had. But apperently adults behind her told her negative things about who did this and it has to pay!!! THE FOX WAS HUNGRY AND THE CHICKEN WAS NOT PROTECTED GOOD ENOUGH. What can you expect. Humane parents would tell about the risk of having chicken as pets. There's risk with all pets - they can die, get killed. 

Oh, and about quick killing versus slow death - then why don't we all go to places with famine and shoot them all, instead of letting people suffer, watching their babies and children pass away and then die slowly in pain! How can we allow that!!!? This is what we do, we don't give a shit. We could fix it but we don't. But one bullet and we had done something good, that's your belive? How strange is that.

posted 164 days ago Dom:

Also, Bet- will do. And I'll throw one back at ya newt. How about the animals who never see the wilds, who are penned up for meat, are we in a position to judge? How about them poor day old chicks being fed to a macerator for eggs to go into cakes. And no I don't think u evil.

posted 164 days ago Dom:

Hi newt , what's with all the rancour mate thought we thrashed this out. Ok but I'll bite. Well let's look at the stats. 2 wolves and about 20 bison. Are you suggesting that only the cute bison calf has a right to live and not the wolf? That she can't hunt to survive and raise her own? I'm sire the middle class kids you mentioned will love the cute fluffy wolf cubs by the way come spring. No it was nt a happy moment, I was so emotionally moved by this footage I was stunned. And as a photographer myself the point is to show nature for better or worse and to educate. The difference I feel between this a d human hunting is ones a sport one is survival. What more can I say. Can you see the local hunt crossing artic tundra to catch their prey? Not without mobile phones, snow mobiles, 30 dogs and a huge support crew. How many miles did those two wolves travel and they got one animal which will feed them and the other arctic wildlife for weeks. Im a huge bug lover, and I will always say ' yes your waxwings and robins are cute but what about my moths and spiders?' Do not getme wrong watching this wasn't gory perversion for me and no I dont consider it even in the same league as badger baiting. The question is would it have been right to shoot the calf or let nature play out. I guess if could shoot I probably would have shot the calf but that in some way would have upset a balance maybe? That female wolf will be stronger now which she will need tobe if she is to raise cubs with no pack May i suggest watching ' grizzly man ' newt, about Tim treadwell at some point. A man who crossed natures line and paid the price

posted 164 days ago Newt:

I saw the end of Frozen Planet, the bit where a wolf killed a bison calf. Oh yeah! That's what I thought...I note that the BBC cut out 99% of the kill out of the footage they broadcast and only showed the bit where the calf (it was a calf, about 12 months old by my guess) managed to toss the the blood soak wolf in the air. Standard day at the office that bit I thought, yeah I have been there, done that, bought the T shirt![been at the end of an attacking bovine and it hurts I can tell you].

That blood wasn't the wolf's by the way. The calf was exhausted at that point, bleeding to death, before it died, its guts will have been ripped out, it flesh torn to shreds...and the wolf, that too would be very sore, batterd, broken and bruised. I note that after the kill we only saw a long shot of the carnage.

Is this entertainment?

Could someone please explain to me why you all seem to want wolves reintroducing to do this to our own wild life (and livestock), but you then oppose fox hunting in which the same thing happens to a fox? Both are wrong in my book...

I just do not get you at all. I find this twisted logic so hypocritical and ignorant. Personally I wouldn't allow any animal to suffer like that, if I could stop it! I certainly don't consider watching such things as "entertainment". That's what badger baiters do! What's the difference?

Yes Judi, I know your sister very well. Oh I have never met her or her partner, but I know them very, very, very well indeed. I have heard this story a thousand times, and always with the same outcome. I have met thousands of people just like them ...perhaps I was even like that once - God help me! Oh yes I know this story only too well!

Your description missed one very important word...YET!

I love honey roast duck! Is that a crime?

Yes I kill. I am not proud of it, but it is part of my life. I keep animals to feed my family, and I sell the meat which allows me to pay for other things like diesel and rent. Killing is by far the worse part of my job, and gives me no pleasure. But I can't allow others to kill my livestock if I am not prepared to do it myself. That would be hypocritical. And if it is going to done by anyone then it should be done quickly and cleanly. Yes I have seen Hallal slaughter, no it is not my favoured method, but yes it was quicker than I thought and the animal did not suffer a tiny fraction of what that calf went through and was filmed for your entertainment folks!

But I would never ever rip another living creature apart, or stand idly by while someone or something else did so. And yes, just so that you know, I have stopped people doing this to badgers on my land - many, many times and i carry the scars of my interventions too.

You want wolves in huge enclosurers, that are fed and treated when they get sick or injured, but have all the free range that they need - great I'm up for that! You want them as a deer control method? No way! A bullet in the heart has got to be a better method, one in the head would be better.

 Judi: As for your sister and her partner, do they have children?

Our vicar was talking to a small group of children the other day about things that they hate and love at this time of year. They were actually middle class children on the whole, whose parents had moved to the country "for a better life". "What d'you really hate more than anything else at this time of year?" the vicar asked. Perhaps he was talking about the winter weather...

"Foxes," declared one little tiny, blonde haired, blue eyed angel for a very well to do professional family that had moved into the country. "It ate my pet chicken, Henrietta!"

The church full of people all murmered. The red vicar tried to change the subject, he was trying to talk about the meaning of Christmas. "Okay well what do you really enjoy then?"

"When my Dad shot it!"

At least her father didn't peel bits of flesh from it over several hours until it bleed to death....but I suspect you all think he was the evil one!

Me? I don't judge him. I've lost all sorts of animals to foxes; chickens, ducks, geese, pet rabbits that we rescued, pigeons, lambs, sheep...never killed a fox yet! Oh I bought a cage trap once to deal with one that kept coming into my lambing field and taking lambs...didn't catch it though, caught a badger instead, but let that go. Perhaps it was a badger doing all the damage. Anyway, let it go again unharmed.

But then I am just evil aren't I, I eat meat, enough said!

posted 164 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, I made a fresh note on your thread: Ocean Mass Extinctions By 2050

Could you pop by please, if you see this?

posted 164 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

"Horse" racing the modern way?

And everybody was having fun and no animals was hurt.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POJEkwv-Oss&list=UUTrtA2LyW7gie0o8hY4efXw&feature=plcp

posted 165 days ago Judi Hewitt:

RE FOXES, CAN I JUST SAY THAT MY SISTER AND HER PARTNER HAVE KEPT DUCKS,GEESE AND CHUCKS FOR EIGHTEEN YEARS AND THEY HAVE NEVER LOST A SINGLE BIRD TO A FOX - ONLY ONE SMALL CHUCK TO A PINE MARTIN. SHE NEVER BLAMED THE ANIMAL EITHER ALL THEIR THIRTY PLUS BIRDS ARE MUCH LOVED PETS. THEY HAVE FREE RUN OF THE FIELD, HER FENCES ARE WELL MASINTAINED AND SHE TAKES THEIR TWO DOGS UP THE FIELD TWO OR THREE TIMES EVERY SINGLE DAY. THEY LOCK THEIR BIRDS UP IN WELL MAINTAINED COSY SHEDS IN THE EVENING!!!!!!!.

People who lose birds to a fox only have themselves to blame. They are the ones being cruel to their birds - a poor fox is only trying to survive - and what is the betting that those who complain the most about foxes eat their chicken, duck and goose themselves - huh, enough said!! 

posted 165 days ago Judi Hewitt:

Re rabbits, can I just say that leaving predators alone keeps a natural balance in nature. Mankind is the only animal which has reached pest proportions. 

posted 166 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Help end AIDS! Create you own quilt panel here, it's very easy:

http://www.2015quilt.com/?t=ONE11

Thank you savers.

posted 167 days ago Linda Adams:

@Steven, glad you understood I was not implying that "testosterone = hunting instinct" ... and quite honestly I was unaware of the 'women campaigners' linking the two. ...As I mentioned... here in the States... it's quite a different news field.

This stuff going on in the UK is simply unheard of and never mentioned here. Try to get any of my Facebook friends to care except those I've met here on Save-Me, or are already otherwise involved in animal work ... sigh. It's a tough job.

I'm grateful to Brian's Soapboxing.... or I'd never have learned about all this going on at all. Brian is a terrific lecturer, teacher & writer - I'd be here chatting if I'd just happened across his site talking about these animal saving issues, and he'd never played a note of music. And that's the truth. 

I've been an animal lover from birth pretty much -- years before I ever heard a Queen song (must we go into how I grew up to only honky-tonk music? no, can we just skip all that? >_< thank you, thank you -- and years more before I figured out who Brian was, enough to read the Soapbox here & there, and started learning all these interesting things going on in England). My mum often accused me of being "much too tender" when I'd worry about a snail squished on the sidewalk or a worm in a rain puddle or an injured kitten or bird or.... sigh. As a child I read my Ranger Rick Magazine religiously when it came (a US mag for kids about wildlife) with fascination.

And I still feel sad every time I pass a roadkill and wonder why someone couldn't have just swerved a little. I know - there are situations where to swerve would endanger another human life, but still. Not in most cases.

I don't understand those of my relatives & some friends who do like to hunt. I don't get it. They are 98% men -- but -- that's only my personal frame of reference, not a scientific study or census count-- and among them, a sharpshooter young gal who shot (and ate) a zebra on safari (did all the cleaning etc herself too - wanted to)... which was her choice for her birthday present in her teens. (All right, well, I can't even imagine offering my child that major a present at any age, but. Beside the point.) They show off the photos, admire the taxidermy on the wall in some cases, what can I do but be polite about it... sigh.  And my kids just showed me a taxidermy ad on YouTube tonight that's gone viral into the 8-million - a real ad - just strange and nutty enough to get there... he says "ship from anywhere!" hm, I wonder if I should ship off that dead skunk in the middle of the road & see if he can make it "lifelike" for me...? (kidding...) Oh dear I'm going off on tangents. Eh!

And to his credit, my own darling hubby (also named Steve, BTW) while he might not knit and does love sports :) would never want to own a gun, hates killing anything and has so far escaped the hunting trips planned & enjoyed by the other men on his side of the family ... corporate "can't get away" excuses usually work out, and he hasn't been obliged to go.

Which is good - as it'd just make him ill to his stomach and come home very unhappy. And me unhappy too. But it's hard to explain to those who enjoy doing it that you just don't want to go in the first place. They don't "get" the why-not either. It's near as bad as getting into it about religion or politics with people who differ from yourself.

I care so much about the animal kingdom- but still have to get on with loved ones different from myself. And then, I haven't become vegetarian either but I sure am thinking a lot harder about where all the food I eat comes from much more than I used to. Am I a conundrum? I hope, just not a hypocrite. Ever. But I do puzzle myself and overthink situations, maybe too much. 

I hope I'm making sense. I'm tired but, that happens a lot. :) 

And to the sensitivity about looks, appearance, etc... one doesn't stay happily married 23 years to a lovely and wonderful man, as I have, and not know these things about men in general. haha.

Quite right tho, why on earth would a woman care from a window to yell down to a total stranger about a bald spot? Pity's sake... how rude!!!

@Betina -- I hear that for a man to pass a large kidney stone the size of a walnut is about equivalent in pain to giving birth. I think - I would rather give birth. Wink. (and I have, natural too) 

@Newt -- thanks for sharing that! too much fun. I'm far beyond slighly mad myself ;-p ...we should be friends. Birds of a feather, you know. Grin.

Well, thanks all for letting me ramble. :)

posted 167 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Yes of course Steven, I was generalsing and I do agree in that good behavier is learned or more like reflected from adults.

I would love to live as a man for a while, ha ha. Would you like to live as a woman at least for one cycle? We should have just that, one month a year where we would switch roles, what joy and laugher it would be.

So, male sexism in the criminal justice system? Can you elaborate that one, please?

And about the rabbits, which Ray Ingram made a thread about, I've thought about that too... how can we keep human playing fields with least interfering on flora and fauna? Rabbit contraceptives? I don't know.... as usual, they have just as much right to be there as we do... they could create jobs for youngsters.. filling holes?

BTW. That woman's just a fool, how can people behave like that - it's a wonder they think it's alright and can feel good about it. She will never be my friend.

posted 168 days ago StevenAult:

I wanted to join in the discussion more yesterday but the library was closed and I had no internet access. Bloody communists! No, only joking, I actually do have socialist leanings. I just hate unabated capitalism. Regarding the testosterone comments, I think testosterone makes men go hunting and want to fight in the same way that oestrogen makes women want to knit jumpers and do the ironing. It's all about gender stereotyping really. I think most behaviour is socially learned. I'd rather knit jumpers than shoot things anyday. I know you wasn't implying this Linda but many women campaigners do link testosterone with hunting for some reason. Betina, if you could only live as a man for a while you'd realise that we are just as touchy about our appearance as women!, and we are subjected to lots of subtle and sometimes not so subtle digs about our bodies! There's a lot more sexism against us than you might imagine. Especially involving the criminal justice system. Lots of casual sexism too. I was walking along the harbour the other day and a woman up on a balcony shouted rather bitchily "I can see your bald patch"! Not very nice. She had no right to say that.   

I've just found out that the local council are using ferrets to control the rabbit 'problem' at a local cemetary. I thought they had groundskeepers to do this? What would this entail exactly? Flushing them out of burrows? I presume it will result in the rabbit's deaths either way. I know this is Yorkshire but it seems a little bit 'last century' to me. Any ides on controlling rabbits? Adding contraceptives to rabbit food?  

posted 168 days ago Newt:

Yes George I'm happy to be called quite mad!

Totally bonkers in truth.

But don't be sad, I have this little gem for you all, if the mods will let me!

"Julie Andrews turns 69, So sing her new song!

"To commemorate her birthday, actress/vocalist, Julie Andrews made a special appearance at Manhattan’s Radio City Music Hall. One of the musical numbers that she performed was ‘My favourite Things’ from the legendary movie ‘The Sound of Music’.

"Here are the lyrics she used (sing it!) If you do, it is better!

"Botox and nose drops and needles for knitting,

Walkers and handrails and new dental fittings,

Bundles of magazines tied up with string,

These are a few of my favourite things.

"Cadillacs and cataracts, hearing aids and glasses,

Polident and Fixodent and false teeth in glasses,

Pacemakers, golf carts and porches with swings,

These are a few of my favourite things.

"When the pipes leak,when the bones creak,

When the knees go bad,I simply remember my favourite things,

And then I don’t feel so bad.

"Hot tea and crumpets and corn pads for bunions,

Hot spicy food or food cooked with onions,

Bathrobes and heating pads and hot meals they bring,

These are a few of my favourite things.

"Back pain, confused brains and no need for sinnin’,

Thin bones and fractures and hair that is thinnin’,

And we won’t mention our short shrunken frames,

When we remember our favourite things.

"When the joints ache,when the hips break,

When the eyes grow dim,

Then I remember the great life I’ve had,

And then I don’t feel so bad.

"Ms. Andrews received a standing ovation from the crowd that lasted over four minutes and repeated encores.

"Please share Ms. Andrew’s clever wit and humour with others who would appreciate it."

posted 168 days ago Linda Adams:

@Newt - lovely writing -- and I'm probably a hippie at heart ... technically much too young tho :-p

Terrific imagery you painted there tho... :))

posted 168 days ago Linda Adams:

@Dom -- ah! I've seen the "Translated" copy of this video... (also very funny! ...it's captioned)

Fun to see again tho.
And what does it say about internet users that 1-min vid has 46-million hits? LOL!

posted 168 days ago Linda Adams:

"Greedy, self absorbed, inconsiderate people who have no care or respect for anything and expect everything on a plate."

Gracious Dom you've just described where I live in California. (My few personal friends here excepted ... mainly meaning all the drivers of Mercedes, Maserati & BMW who consistently cut off my Chevy. And honk if I'm a split-second behind on the brake pedal when the light turns green. And I do mean SPLIT second. Driving isn't my finest talent, no, but I'm not crummy either - I'm accident-free.)

Grin. :)

@Betina - glad that was posted! Insightful and funny. Thank you!

posted 168 days ago Dom:

This might make you chuckle. Time for some funnies

One of the most fascinating things for me is the vocalisation cats produce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3U0udLH974

posted 168 days ago Dom:

And Newt you have my blessing to buy and wave a pitchfork at those inconsiderate blights on Britihs society because I deal with them every week.

Greedy, self absorbed, inconsiderate people who have no care or respect for anything and expect everything on a plate. 

And bikes, can not Honda or Suzuki make quiet motobikes now, why are they so darn noisy?

posted 168 days ago Dom:

Cheer up- might I recommned some George Gerswhin, Concerto in F can fit the bill. Close your eyes and imagine your in the art deco corridoors of 20's Manhatten.

Just artfully ignore the great depression...

posted 168 days ago George:

Newt thanks for clearing that up. I'm glad you're not like how I thought. You are however quite insane, so I'm not sure what to believe... This land you own, or 'oversee' should I say, seems like the place to be, an awful lot going on there!

My points on ownership stem essentially from my frustration at the lack of a level playing field when it comes to us and animals. Evolution seems to have failed by creating only a single species with superior intelligence, thus no competition. We are an unfortunate evolutionary disaster for this planet. Where wild animals have to fight for their lives to claim a small amount of land to inhabit for survival, we just come in with a few machine guns and tear the place up until its human-ready.

You're right I am a dreamer. I have to be in the world we live in today. When you know what's wrong with the world but have no power to fix it it's at first infuriating, then demoralising, but eventually just damn depressing.

posted 168 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, I always knew you were a hippy!

Dom, glad to make you smile;)

Mods, thank you ♥

posted 169 days ago Newt:

Dom,

Nay lad thou hast not offended me! For thou art a dreamer - and in no way is that a criticism, for it is a talent that few poses in this dreary, sad world! Like one of those birds, entrapped in a small cage on the sun drenched wall of a mediteranean peasant's house, thy song is loud and passionate about a wild place of thine dreams, of open forests, and wild creatures roaming free, with people living in harmony with the noble beast of fell and forest. How can that be wrong?

What you say of unions I may well agree with - but then that is so easy to do because I am not in any union. However I have responsibilities and I have to be careful here, for although I have never met those at the top of the NFU we might need their cooperation in the future, so we must be careful not to offend.

George,

Then my analogy was quite wrong, for I do not mean any such thing! It was not my intention to condone what has happened, but it has happened and the world has moved on. Morally wolves should be back where they once roamed, dinosaurs too perhaps, practically though I agree it would not be fair to them to do so, or those around them.

I think you too are a dreamer, and there is nothing wrong with that.

On the question of ownership, ah if it were only that simple! I wish I owned large tracts of land! I mean really owned it! But I am just the lowly peasant who tends and maintains, my master's land, stollen by his ancestors at the point of the sword and lawyer's quill from the ancestors of commoners like you and I in the Enclosures!

For those of us that work the land, we are not owners, we are in reality enslaved to it!

And the small piece of England that is mine (or several small pieces) I have no control over them! Oh it may seem so from afar, but in reality I am more entrapped than any of you! Oh how I yearn for the freedom to live as a free man, to eat and sleep as I wish, to come and go as I choose, but by chasing the freedom that I crave, I have become more and more ensnared in the ropes and chains of regulation and red tape!

Others come and go through my land at will and what can I do to stop them if I choose? They hunt, they shoot, they fish, they climb my wall and knock it down because a nettle grows on the footpath, they drop their beer cans and crisp packets, their dogs chase my my pets and my wild friends, and craps outside my gate, their cars pollute the air and rip up my grass verges, their children shout and scream and terify my wild neighbours, they cut down trees and urinate in the stream, and pitch tents in the woods or lie in the open making love....well actually that bit is quite entertaining...they fly over with their planes, day and night and race their motorbikes up and down the roads and up the green lanes...and what do I do? When they are all gone, I and the rest of the creatures of the forest come out of our holes and we clean up the mess! And for this service, I am hounded constantly for money by a society obsessed with consumerism!

Ownership? Ownership is an illusion, what do we really own at the end of the day? Any of us? We buy something, use it and then give it up again and where does that leave us? In that sense we are no different to that ancient wolf that once stood here, and howled into the night declaring "My territory, keep out, I'm bigger than you!" Perhpas it was once. Now he's gone. Soon I'll be gone, then the next "owner" of this small place will occupy this space and worry about its offspring and the world around it and finding the food to feed to its family, and keep back others of its species that wish to take this from it, what it has won through its own efforts for itself for the brief time that it is here.

That's called life I'm afraid. It's not a dream, actually it is more of a nightmare!

5.15 am, the cat has just come in, because the dogs were barking at old brock as he past in the night, making his way home. Time to get on and make a cup of tea for Mrs Newt and start a new day, there's wood to cut up, a dentist to see and if I get no treatment from him, I have blood to donate later on this evening, as my life force goes to save another of those less fortunate than I. I don't even own the blood in my own veins!

But look everyone, be happy with what you have, but try and break free from your chains and follow your dreams, you only have one life, live it!

Brian, you're right, I am a hippy really!

posted 169 days ago Linda Adams:

I'm also out of chocolate. This is not good and needs to be addressed rather immediately.
So.... I'll be back later. Take care all - luvs & hugs!

posted 169 days ago Linda Adams:

**Aaargh as an author NOT having an "edit post" button after clicking "Share" makes me a little crazy -- (oops too late already am) -- crazi-ER...

Re: Pocahontas the MOVIE -- I said "Historically speaking" which is ambigious. I meant. It's entirely historically inaccurate (but IS Disney... what do we expect really on that point?). I didn't mean, it didn't do well box office or, artistically, or whatever. I mean, it's a film that personally rates very low in my book, but did have a terrific song in it.

posted 169 days ago Linda Adams:

Hullo and thank you... I am maybe over-cautious in making quick apologies, but would rather make sure I haven't hurt anyone, than inadvertently do so and keep on blustering through unaware.

Glad to be welcome here, still, another reason I don't post all too much is, I don't often feel I can add anything pertinent to the discussion. :)

I'm the cheerleader - rah rah with the pompoms -- Go Team! ... and aside from the fact I can't actually dance worth a bean & no-one here would want to see me in a short skirt - ha! ... (and that I can't generally stand cheerleading as a... sport, or whatever it is - I'm the Mum with kids in marching band, LOL!) ... anyway aside from all that, over here in California, being a fairly silly and typical American, that's usually all I *can* do for this organization. Sigh. You've all completely lost me on the town vs. country and the strike going on tomorrow. We just don't get British news in the US and town/country debate is pretty much never heard going on.

It all goes over my head... and I've tried to dye blonde so I fool less people looking at me but it doesn't work. :) (there, now I've insulted the intelligent blondes too now) ^_^

Dom, loved the cat staring down story. ^_^

The wolf and property and ownership reminds me of the song "Colors of the Wind" in Disney's Pocahontas (an abysmal failure, historically speaking, but that ONE song was amazing) -- "you think you own whatever land you land on - the earth is just a dead thing you can claim - but I know every rock and tree and creature -- has a life, has a spirit, has a name."

All right, *maybe* that was relevant. :-)

posted 169 days ago Dom:

Haha bet, no worries and I'm flattered thanks. I think before any more talk of wolves in Scotland please can you visit the site I posted and then discuss it, because 1) it explains better than I and 2) we are going into the realms of Beowulf . Wolves would not be stalking the nation at night. Please visit for my sanity and then offer up views.

posted 169 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

If I may meddle in on the sub. about wolves, and I will say I don't know much about them or farming or cars for that matter.. Newt ;) I'm still in a learning process. I think George are quite right in saying we need to think about what we have done. So we'd killed all the wolfes and know it's the badgers. A future scenario could be that they would continue the killings year after year and end up wiping them out. Then on to the next specie that interfere our lifestyle. That is the typical human action, so why not learn from the fatal escapades and do something else? Why is it so hard for us admitting we failed, so hard to step on the brake doing a U turn or choosing another direction. We keep on acting foolish and stubborn with devestating results. Could it be that we don't praise each other enough for the little good we do?

Re. feminism. If men can be annoyed just by a small note about testosterone, we women should be annoyed constantly for all the things said about us. NOT on here - we have good, lovable men here of course;).... But elsewhere, it's awful how some men can talk about woman and despite what you might think of me, I'm not a real feminist according to how the word are percieved. Actually I agree with you Linda in all you say about how things are for men these days. Many woman can be really awful too but there's a difference I think. The nasty stuff said about woman orbits around certain bodyparts and sex and you don't have to be a chauvinist to be in that group. Awful behavier toward men goes on everyday in many homes. In my opinion some woman think they own the man and the house and having severe problems in the simple act of being able to relax. There's a little group of ekstreme feminist and I think they contain nasty words on men as well. Thing is, I see myself as a sort of woman defender/protector but I can't say many words before I get judged as being a feminist. I'm really not - I love most men!

And yes, Premenstruel Symptoms! It's quite common, but very few has the syndrome (PMS). Still many woman can be very affected of PS and I tell you, I envy men for not having to go through all this crap (can I say crap?) Not all want artificial hormones or other medicine to control our bodies and so we can be pains but what can we do about it? FYI, the PS stage do not necessarily hit as hard every month, some times we hardly notice it (but we might use it as an excuse anyway for being unreasonable and stressed out etc.... joking!) But do not despair, all you men. You might not think this is a subject for you but I recommend you to do some study on the whole issue if you have not yet done that. After all, it is nice to know when the odds are highest for "romance". End of lesson:)

(Sorry for any kinds of generalisation, girls and boys)

Dom, I agree 200% if that's possible... do you happen to be avilable? No just kidding!!! I know you're not. (Sorry mods it's just a little innocent fun, hope you don't mind) 

posted 169 days ago George:

Newt,

Through your analogy you're saying that its okay that we wiped out wolves for our own selfish pleasure because we, through violence, now 'own' these lands, and because we now do they have no right to have it back? Cowboys and Indians springs to mind...

The analogy also presumes that ownership lies with either of those involved. I do not believe it does. To claim ownership of vast lands is selfish at best, but also requires as mentioned, violence in order to maintain. Yes the wolves were here before us humans. They didn't 'own' the land no, but we, being intelligent enough not to do so, decided to destroy them for our own pleasure and self-preservation. Morally, wolves should be back in these lands in a minute, but practically, I'd probably oppose any such ideas. Unless it was viable to keep them away from humans, which seems impossible. I'm for wolf reintroduction where they will be absolutely safe, protected and best suited to the environment. Wolves shouldn't be reintroduced for anyone elses sake but their own.

Anyway, I think at the very least people should challenge ideas that tend towards human domination of the planet and its many inhabitants - whom we often forget we DO share the planet with. I don't think that an analogy using house ownership is quite suitable to apply to the life or death of another species, just because we 'think' we own everything.

P.s. I hope your collies don't succumb to this 'red mist' of killing that you speak of...

posted 169 days ago Dom:

I do think that about the unions Newt, this strike tomorrow is not gathering support from parents and the public sector but resentment. A colleague has had to use holiday to look after her kid which is in effect deducting her wages. Because the people striking want More money, whilst she is on a low wage anyway.

And whilst I agree you need someone to stand up for any group of people, I do think these unions can do more damage than good. If I was to go on a farming website, I bet there is an article about the leader of the current farmers union angry about something. 

Does he not think how this looks to the public in large, that this stamping feet attitude just gets people backs up and sympathy goes out the window. With the internet these things are in public domain, open to any Joe Bloggs who wants a say.

I mean its almost milataristic. But ultimately it puts across the view that this is what all the farming community is like.

But personally I think its a PR disaster, why should people buy British beef when any querie about the welfare of an animal is met with hostilty.

Why are vegetarians views met with hostilty when really they are consumers to and a wise farmer could make a tidy sum catering to that market. 

For farmers to be better understood then they need to come forward and meet their cleints, and with the internet this is possible. Because there are people out there who will support them, not all the population but enough to make a living.

And would nt a farmer rather have his produce appreciated by clients than just sold off into the faceless corparate machine.

These are my views, if town and country to get along it has to be give and take on both sides.

The towns need to care more about what they are eating and buying but who are they suppose to care about? The glossy photos of a cow in a field. Its all souless.

And I think this where locallsm needs to come back into the for front of farming and shopping.

I just wonder if this barrier is actually purposefully made, keep people in the dark, feed paranoia. 

And in the end they have what they want, total dependance.

Also you often mention minority Newt, but how much of this is through lack of communication on both sides, be honest how many farmers have been asked a civil question and either replied angrily or poo-poohed the suggestion. I personally dont think farming is a minority, no more than the Police force or fire service, but thinking you are in a minority can sometimes compress these feelings and ultimately become self sustaining.

 Whats your thought on these issues? I guess to round up I think the way things are in many walks of life, not just farming is just not working. I mean why are Avery and Kendall at each others throats all the feckin time, they should be working together.

New ways are needed or a return to old ways. localism!

posted 169 days ago Dom:

Look here the link on Wolfs in scotland I posted. Have a read , draw your own conclusons and lets hear no more on the bloddy subject-seriulsy its not wolves running free willy nilly, its a reservation which will have no people there at all. And if there were Im sure they would be consulted. Its also part of the reforest Scotland scheme whihc ultimately is trying to turn parts of Scotland back to pure wilderness. Anyway the info is all there, go and read. Remember we have the wildcat already which is capable of getting a lamb and if they are cornered the results are messy to say the least. Ferociuos isnt the word! they could damage an adult quite easily let alone children, dogs, etc.

http://www.save-me.org.uk/forum/members_threads/550

Linda take no notice, it is just banter, we usually thrash something out of the fracard.

Infact try holding an adult feral cat if it doesnt want to be held,(actually dont if you like stuff like your facr and arms to be unscarred) now imagine what the Scottish Wild cat can do. A friends 2 year old pulled a siamiese 's tail and is now in hospital because it turned around and swiped the baby. Lesson learnt I guess. But cats are tough critters. Our neighbours cat starred down a dog 3 times it size. It was an amazing bit of animal behaviuor to witness. 

The dog went from brave, to edgy to downright embarressed and didnt quite now what to do.It walked off with tail between its legs. This cat has a stare which can melt glass. You have to admire a cats pure attitude. Top of the food chain on land.

Anyway Newt Im up for that. If I offended then sorry.

posted 169 days ago Newt:

Yes George I was kidding, sorry. I agree with everything else you say here, completely; although, and perhaps you'll have to take it from me, sometimes it is quite hard getting collies out of the "kill" instinct, it's like a red mist comes over them (especially dogs as opposed to bitches). But essentially I quite agree.

Don't know why my last doubled up, seems to be happening to Dom too; perhaps we are too excited with the share button.

One thing before I go though George, while I agree that wolves were here first, you wouldn't let a previous owner into your house on the grounds that they lived there before you, would you? Just a thought...

posted 169 days ago George:

Newt,

Not entirely sure if you're serious re; the 'tell that farmer his dog has the killing bred out of it' comments or what you're getting at - my original passing reference was to the selective breeding of collies 'out' of the 'kill' part of the sight-stalk-chase-kill hunting process, hence they're able to herd and are well known for it. If this wasn't the case there'd be a lot of dead sheep out there. I'm sure there's exceptions out there but collies aren't supposed to kill the sheep or goats or whatever they're herding. Though... I'm sure you know this anyway.

Regarding wolves, you have to remember that this was their land long before it was ours. In my opinion though to reintroduce wolves into the UK would be nonsensical - purely for reasons of human conflict. We came into their land and killed them off in our pursuit of dominance and lust for power over the world, I do hope you take pity on the shamefulness of this.

posted 169 days ago Newt:

Ah don't worry Linda, it's all good fun, just a bit of banter, no oneshould feel hurt!

Dom,

You are absolutely right! Lets start a new campaign right now, starting with you and me, trying to end the conflict between town and country! We should start by undertaking not to offer negative criticism to each other, just positive, constructive advice. How does that sound? We could change the World! Are you up for it? Shall we give it a try?

Newt

posted 169 days ago Newt:

Ah don't worry Linda, it's all good fun, just a bit of banter, no oneshould feel hurt!

Dom,

You are absolutely right! Lets start a new campaign right now, starting with you and me, trying to end the conflict between town and country! We should start by undertaking not to offer negative criticism to each other, just positive, constructive advice. How does that sound? We could change the World! Are you up for it? Shall we give it a try?

Newt

posted 169 days ago Linda Adams:

PS before I go... actually I'm not a feminist either... in honesty I'm more on the men's side of things ... there is clearly a double standard in our society where it is "okay" to tease the men now for all sorts of things and definitely "not okay" to say the same about a woman else be labeled sexist. Quite the 180-degree flip from those original James Bond movies & the way women were seen & treated in society 50 years ago.

And for my error in perpetuating that double standard, here on this board, I do sincerely and deeply apologize. (even, in my latest post - whoops - did it again).

Because I have just participated in a behavior that is actually - literally - one of my own pet peeves.... yes, clearly... the brain is still not running at its best. Sigh. As I said - clearly -- not posting at my best - sorry. 

Mainly I came in to say hello. And the discussion's been fascinating. Thanks for that.

posted 169 days ago Linda Adams:

Ah dear friends, if only you knew me more well, you'd know I was making a friendly joke there re:testosterone - taken wrong again -- oh and btw yes I probably shouldn't be posting as I'm entering that PMS stage and don't mind joking about it ... it *can* show... but I didn't mean to bite.

I'm sorry for any offences caused; I'm sorry I'm not a scientist and haven't studied, I was merely observing the air was heating up in here and tossing off a quick joke to see about defusing a potential melee. But - whoooops - no, you can't hear my tone of voice of see my body language or my ready smile (I try to use smilies, but they're not that much help) ... so... I've offended and rightly so all the men reading the forum it seems. Please accept my apologies.

Interesting that testosterone actually causes laziness more than anything. But I'll keep any further humorous thoughts on that point to myself.

To be frank, I thought the main function of testosterone was to grow copious amounts of body hair.

(yes. that is a joke.)

^_^

Please smile!

ta.... I guess I'll bow out of this one. :) I'll come back later when less brain-dead, in better health, and in a more proper week of my cycle to engage in a serious conversation. ~~sigh~~

...just can't win... that is my theme this week it would seem. ^_^

posted 169 days ago Dom:

Newt where have you got this idea of wolves running free. Have you checked the actual website I posted here months ago? It would be a reservation and yes I have thought about what would happen to wolves, just because I dint run them by this site anymore doesn't mean I haven't . Go look at the site maybe. This divide between country and rural is mind bogglingly sad. I suppose if the hunt associations and Nfu are feeding country folk this paranoia it's to be expected. After all it certantly suits their cause to keep farmers away from the actual consumer. Then they can proclaim they are helping and fighting for the country, yet seems to me they aren't doing the best of jobs. Milk prices, btb, etc yes of course it's ALL the supermarkets fault right? Meanwhile how much subscription do downtrodden farmers pay? No I can't fix a car newt but I can tell you that polyphony digital designed the dash of nissans gtr, or which year the mini cooper won the monte Carlo rally, or the bhp of a Subaru impreza. I can't play music so should I not critise a new album release, or disagree with an artists opinion. Or say they should have done this. There is no thing in your life which isnt your profession which you have made no comment on, like read a bad book, a politicians choices, war, etc?

posted 169 days ago Dom:

Newt where have you got this idea of wolves running free. Have you checked the actual website I posted here months ago? It would be a reservation and yes I have thought about what would happen to wolves, just because I dint run them by this site anymore doesn't mean I haven't . Go look at the site maybe. This divide between country and rural is mind bogglingly sad. I suppose if the hunt associations and Nfu are feeding country folk this paranoia it's to be expected. After all it certantly suits their cause to keep farmers away from the actual consumer. Then they can proclaim they are helping and fighting for the country, yet seems to me they aren't doing the best of jobs. Milk prices, btb, etc yes of course it's ALL the supermarkets fault right? Meanwhile how much subscription do downtrodden farmers pay? No I can't fix a car newt but I can tell you that polyphony digital designed the dash of nissans gtr, or which year the mini cooper won the monte Carlo rally, or the bhp of a Subaru impreza. I can't play music so should I not critise a new album release, or disagree with an artists opinion. Or say they should have done this. There is no thing in your life which isnt your profession which you have made no comment on, like read a bad book, a politicians choices, war, etc?

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Oh, oh good one Betina! So do you know how to change a blown head gasket? Not that mine's blown yet...just bubbling a bit...

Steve, I love the way you look at the world sometimes! I'm not sure either of us were showing aggression were we? I just thought it was an interesting discusion, but there you go! One man's joke is another man's insult!

George,

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/latest-news/eighteen-sheep-killed-in-dog-attacks/43295.article

Perhaps you should tell that farmer that the dog here has had the killing bred out of it.

Have any of you seen a sheep killed by a dog? Sadly I have, and any dog, whether a wild one, or domestic one, whether a fox hound or as in this case a pet collie from a neighbour, kills by ripping apart it's prey. Bite by bite. Not a pretty site. I saw a fox killed once too, a long, long time ago, by a couple of hounds, long story, never been on a fox hunt since. Wasn't on one then, just minding my own business, nasty business - I've said too much, I'm off.

posted 170 days ago StevenAult:

Linda, there are many myths about testosterone. It really does'nt cause violence and aggression at all. Testosterone has a calming/lazying effect if anything. Aggression and violence is usually caused by stress and fear and NOT testosterone. It's just a feminist myth. The 'liberation' of women is starting to prove this theory. It's scientifically wrong to link aggression with testosterone. Risk taking maybe, but not aggression.      

posted 170 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Oh well, I play along:)

We all want safer and more envoironmentally friendly cars. And apparently it's not that easy to get so we have to fight for it. It would be life-saving to get the big lorries and the worst giant polluters off the road to give more space for smaller and more caring drivers in new improved cars.

And so it's crucial that small broken cars sees the right kind of mechanic.....  etc.

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Oh how nice Betina!

You will find that Newt is easily led, but very hard to drive! 

On the chicken/wild bird thing, to be honest I don't really understand this side of microbiology very well. I don't know why we get avian TB but it doesn't do us any real harm, but when we do get bovine TB it can kill.

I have never heard of birds spreading bTB. I suspect that if they can't get the illness themselves the risk is reduced to what they can carry on their bodies and is reduced further by UV. In which case this would tend to be very small dose. I have read somewhere (sorry I can't remember where) that for a cow to become a reactor it has had to have had a dose of over 70,000 bacilli. Perhaps birds just can't carry that quantity, I don't know. Otherwise the cow's own defences just overwhelm the bacterium without forming an immunity (making them reactors). But this is just my reasoning and I have no idea if it is true.

If my car breaks down, then I take it to an experienced mechanic - if I can't fix it myself. I do not take it to a group of people with strong opinions on whether or not we should have cars in the first place, but no mechanical knowledge. They might care about cars in the environment very passionately and one should comend them for it, but if they can't even drive themselves - why should Newt do what they say to fix his car? Perhaps some of them might have an alternative agenda and rather than help him, they might want to do away with his car. If they succeeded, Newt might be very popular with these people briefly, but would they be there to give Newt a lift into town to but some much needed new shoes?

But Newt is more tollerant than that, he will happily chat with these people about the need to have a car in the first place, but might also remind them that they have access to public transport, whereas Newt does not, so their choice is much easier. He might even think about giving up his car in the long term after listening to their very vallid points - but he knows that none of them are going to fix his car for him. He has to do that himself or with the help of someone who knows about these things, rather than people who have strong opinions on the rights and wrongs of the motor car.

It's a metaphor he said patronisingly;-)

Take care, and have a good day,

Newt

posted 170 days ago Newt:

We could however solve a lot of problems in our inner cities by releasing lions into overcrowded areas as a form of population control that might be fun?

posted 170 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Wow Dom, I didn't know you could write like that. I'm impressed. No honestly, I'm blown away by your words and their striking power. I like that style, keep it up!

And I agree. Yes motorcars and also guns, drugs and alcohol.... there's so many man made dangers to our children and youngsters.

Newt, I'm still chewing on that bird issue and no-ooh I won't tell you to keep you chickens away from you cows. I don't think I can get you to do anything - I'm too much a townie for that, I think. I still love you though :-)

But you know... the mystery of btb and the way it passes has not yet been 100% solved. I'm just thinking, there might be ways that have not yet been considered or investigated.

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Oh Linda I thought I was being very nice about it! Testosterone eh? Do I coment about ladies who sometimes post comments which seem somewhat under the influence of PMT? No absolutely not, that would be very rude!

Dom,

You've told me about your home before, sounds great. Ideal wolf habitat? No not really. I don't think my home would be either - you might disagree.

I agree with what you say about public paths and bulls. There is however a difference - albeit a subtle one that I don't think you are the sort of guy who will aknowledge. The bull is in a field owned or occupied legally by the keeper. Now if the wolf were confined in the same way (however big an area) by the owner or legal occupier then I have absolutely no problem. Not at all. Fine that's none of my business and I would happily visit the sanctuary if run properly.

Under British law however, you can not confine a predator with a prey species like that. [Although apparently it is okay to keep say snakes and feed them live rodents but I digress.]

Therefore, to release wolves into the wild, by definition is to release them unconfined.

This I have a big problem with.

You talk about people driving through, walking in the countryside, and rock climbing and entering wolf pens; but you totally disregard the fact that human beings also live in the country side. Everywhere in these over crowded islands.

My point is a simple one; if you wish to have wolves running about to control deer as an apex predator (which they aren't really, but I am ignoring that for now) then they will have a direct impact on the people who legally live and work there and yes that would tend to be (but not exclusively) farmers.

Never, ever, ever in the course of human affairs will people be allowed to release apex hunters into an urban environment. So why is okay to release them into a farming community? What about our children walking to school? Or playing in their own back yards? What about our elderly? What about our property - or don't you care about the risks that you are putting them under? And yes whether you like it or not, livestock are property, very valuable property too sometimes.

But what you absolutely have utterly failed to acknowledge is what about the wolves? Aren't you just releasing another species to be persecuted?

I note that in countries that do have wolves for example, they also have a strong culture of hunting those wolves. So would you permit these wolves that you have decided to release into my backyard, to be hunted? Well actually I don't want people coming here to hunt wolves thank you. And are you going to compensate me when my lambs are killed and taken away?

Now that is an idea I like! Let me see, yes, I could add 50% to the number of lambs that were born this year and compensation for them being taken would buy me a nice new car. Okay Dom get on with it. The compensation shouldn't add up to much more than a few hundred pounds an acre... a wolf might need...oh I guess a thousand acres... so I'm happy for the compensation to be set at say £250,000 a wolf a year....

...And we could charge hunters £5,000 a wolf to hunt them. But the sort of people who could pay that would be business men, bankers and American dentists...so we could rent them helicopters to get them up to the wolves and put them up in five star hotels...them of course...

Is that what you want?

I don't.

posted 170 days ago Dom:

Newt, you  hate sweeping 'racism' about farmers yet you generilise yourself. So anybody who isnt a farmer lives in a town house with a backyard then in a city?

I have at the back of my flat over 40 miles of ancient hunting forest, i have the longest river in Britain 5 metres from my front door. So yes the wolf could do quite well in my backyard as it happens. Deer to hunt, so the forest isnt overgrazed and the other species who loose out to deer ( an introduced species not native to Britain unlike the Wolf was orginally) can come back.

Whats the difference anyway, when a farmer keeps a dangerous bull in a field with a public footpath with out a warning sign? Or when you again walk through a fields of cattle and realise there is a bull in there. Thanks Mr. Farmer for the warning, bet ya chuckling right now about stupid townies, except I have to get my young nephew out of this field whos starting to cry except the cows have fallen in behind us. Great onwards and forwards and lets climb over this rusty barbed wire fence as the main path exit has been blocked. Yes this did happen about 5 years ago. The bull didnt stop looking for a second, it followed us everywhere about 20 feet behind. Im sure your tell me it was harmless anyway, but not a nice experince. At least with a wolf reservation you would know where it is, instead of cows just appearing in a field one day  a field you had walked across every week for years.

Anyway I doubt wolves would be re introduced considering what an uproar the beaver has caused and if they were it would be in a reservation with no people, children or otherwise.

And again is not what happens in there parts of the world not our concern? perhaps we should chop down the forest here or pollute the river, its on our doorstep so its no one elses concern right?

And no Wolves or any wild animal should not be kept as a pet, however I have a safari park within a mile from my house with wolves. 

Infact a walk in the French mountains or italy you could observe wild wolves now. They have been that sucessful. Any cases of humans being attacked,,, zero and they are truly free in mainland europe. In Scotland they would be in a reservation privately owned. 

Makes no odds, you or me will have no say on the matter, although Im for it.

Perhaps we should ban motorcars, fence waterways, have every dog vetted incase of it being dangerous, fine people who dont pick up their dog muck and can cause a child to contract roundworm. Out of all the ills which can affect people, wolves would be so far down the list Im not even sure its an issue. They would be in a reserve. And as I live two miles away from a safari park with Wolves, lions and tigers, not once have I ever worried about them escaping and if they did  being attacked by them.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree

posted 170 days ago Linda Adams:

Now watching the interaction between Newt and George I sit here thinking about the effects of testosterone in the human brain. ..... LOL.... ^_^

The saying goes - -- -

"Dogs have Masters. Cats have Staff."

heehee

I have a sign/decoration in my home that says "If Cats could talk - they wouldn't."

Newt -- they _are_ lovely pets, and their fur is very soft and fluffy, a cuddly breed with a very soft chin on your knee when you need cheering up... so much a great pet, that you don't mind the bits of undercoat fur floating always in the air & landing in the butter. LOL!! (it's very fine/thin - you don't see it till you hit it... with your mouth... hahaa) I actually miss that.... we haven't had one in our home for some time now... and can't have a dog currently for landlord and proper fencing reasons. (not buying a home in California - no - in this economy that would = financial suicide!)

sigh.

Linda, writing from the Hotel California +_+ ... who could use a good doggie chin on the knee today

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Don't be silly I keep telling you I don't have a gun! Honestly haven't you worked it out yet!

So what sort of dogs do you have then?

posted 170 days ago George:

Dom, I do put on a little bit of a wilful ignorance when it comes to cats, mostly because I'm a 'dog guy'. But I do find them interesting. I think you're right they don't have masters, they are their own 'masters' from what I've observed.

Newt, I'd be happy to take up that challenge, its my job. You're van would be mine within time. Unless of course you came along with a gun or something, then I'd run away.

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Okay George,

I don't entirely disagree.

Dom,

I don't hate wolves, why do you hate them? I mean you don't sell them in your pet shop, or do you? I mean they must be great pets if  they are so wonderful to watch, perhaps you could sell them for people to release into their own back yards right? I mean the rest of the world lives with them rght? I bet that they would do very well where you live!

Take care,

Newt

PS George, have you told my collies that they have had killing bred out of them? Would you like to? I tell you what, we'll meet somewhere in my van and I'll leave it unlocked and if you can get in and tell them, and get out again, I'd love to see it! ;-) 

posted 170 days ago Dom:

George-Cats are no enigma, infact no more complicated than dogs. I have had to study Cat psycholgy quite  abit. If you can get past the myth that there is 'more going on than they let on', or they are schemers then they are quite straightforward and fascinating animals. 

I posted some thing s about cat behaviuor on the 'responsible pet ownership ' board.

The only thing I will say is cats have no masters only friends. And also try blinking at a cat. This lack of having a master is what I find so fascinating. 

Anyway if you do have any queries about felines search me out.

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Linda,

They sound like great pets, I'd love to see one in the flesh!

posted 170 days ago Dom:

Im not sure what this hatred of Wolves is Newt.

I dont have this disgust of how they hunt. Infact watch the Winter episode of Frozen Planet and the part with the two wolves and the bison. 

The female wolf and the bison especially-its so moving. This is not fun for either and shows that to catch and kill a bison is nt just a walk in the park, its a matter of life or death for the wolf, with more failed attempts than success.

So sorry I will disagree, USa, Europe, infact most the world live with large predators, a walk in the Appalacian woods could bring you into a bears path, yet we have trouble with foxes, so excuse me if I find this countries attitude to predators and large animals pathetic. 

As for not seeing wild animals, I see many, I live by a river and even if I did live in a city they are fast becoming the hotspots to watch foxes,badgers and birds of prey and one study showed there is more bio-diveristy in cities than many parts of the countryside. Even in Los Angeles my friend there iives with coyoties passing through his garden. hence the storm doors they have. 

An eco-system needs apex predators to work. As for reintroducing a lynx, you would never know its there and its not up to us its up to whoever owns the land in Scotland. I think a very rich man is building a giant enclosure, we are talking miles wide. I posted the links ages ago. If I had the money and could do the job properley I would re introduce the wolf. 

As for kids, well if a parent lets them walk on their own in an area where wolfs are known to inhabit then its the parent fault surely and no different to letting them cross a road, play out late at night, or go rock climbing, or whatever.

Infact the biggest worry kids have are twisted adults, traffic and domestic animals not nature I would have thought. 

posted 170 days ago Newt:

Betina,

As far as I know, no. All mammals can get bTB from Mycobacterium bovis, or Mycobactrium tuberculosis, but birds get a similar disease from Mycobacterium avium. Now cattle and humans can pick up and react to Mycobacterium avium too and that is why two injections are used in the cattle skin test. One of them is made from Mycobacterium avium I believe and if the cow reacts equally to both tests then she has been exposed to M. avium and not M. bovis and this is not considered a problem, but if the M. avium is smaller (I don't know off the top of my head by how much) then the cow is slaughtered as it has been exposed to M. bovis.

I hope that you are not now going to tell me I should keep my chickens away from the cows, that would be difficult. However you would be quite correct, for other reasons. For example E. coli could be passed from chickens to cattle or sheep, but we have no had that problem for a while now. 

posted 170 days ago George:

Newt, I'm not sure if you're point re; dogs is directed me but I'll address it briefly anyway.

No, play is not down to domestication. Do re-read what I said. Dogs, as mentioned, are stuck in the adolescent stage of development, wherein play/feign hunting is key to future subsistence hunting. We 'manufactured' them to remain in this stage to allow us to manipulate the sight-stalk-chase-kill hunting process. Your collies for example were bred out of only the 'kill' stage.

I have to address your concluding point of "animals hunt for pleasure" again. I will repeat, excluding human developed domestic predators, no nonhuman predator hunts FOR pleasure. This is absurd. They hunt FOR subsistence. Pleasure is merely an evolutionary side-effect that occurs in some cases. Having observed a wolf hunting myself, I can attest to their hunting being not at all for pleasure. This is absolutely insulting to their need to hunt for subsistence. They must feed themselves and their family. Its no game, and 'pleasure' is rarely a part of it, in-fact quite the opposite. Exhaustion, excrutiating pain or even death are more often the result of hunts.

Humans ARE the only species that hunts FOR pleasure. The only species that, after a nice meal brought from the supermarket goes out on the 4x4 with a lamp and a shotgun to blow apart some foxes for a laugh. To then say that other animals do this too is insulting to their way of life.

posted 170 days ago Linda Adams:

Newt - fascinating information, thank you for sharing your dog training history! Yes a clicker is very often used. My background/frame of reference is less in the herding/working breeds obviously but have had much interaction with Keesie breeders, "dog show people" and obedience trial/trainers.

While a Keesie is, yes, easily trained so far as housebreaking, "sit" "stay" and "down," basic ideas, Keeshonden are notorious for being about as awful with obedience training as a typical housecat. LOL! It's rare to find one actually juming the hoops in the obstacle courses, etc - quite rare!

And this is the main reason you won't find them much in police work. They are quite smart, but seem to need to understand the "So... WHY... should I 'fetch you a beer?'" question or they won't do it. They'll just look at you as though YOU are the stupid one in this equation. ;-p (like a cat) But yes they WILL play... and love treats and LOVE to eat, so there probably some out there who have been trained to "fetch beer" ... especially if they watch another dog do it and receive praise for the behavior ... it's just not the norm. 

They aim to please though - and most who came into rescue, we found, it was the owner's misunderstanding of the breed they went for that was the main problem. IE - they wanted a dog do to play fetch with their young son and stay outdoors all day, or in a run. Whoops - no - wrong breed. They will not tolerate it. They quickly become bored and depressed if left outdoors, and away from their pack "Family." They MUST be kept indoors with you - they have great need to be your constant companion, because this companionship with their human is how and what they were selectively bred for. When this need is taken away from them - left in a yard or alone all day - they will "misbehave" etc. --digging holes, trying to escape, running away, barking incessantly.

But yes... they are a highly intelligent breed. :) Just not a shepherding breed! haha! no I couldn't see one chasing a calf either. But yes, they are excellent as companion dogs to the disabled or elderly... or as a pet in a nursing home, etc... and as a guide dog for the blind, where they truly ARE the constant companion and much needed by their person, they are quite happy.

Another note before moving on - Betina, excellent question! (and drat, my heart didn't work... "my way" shown is how to make one on Facebook though!)  -- is despite all their fur they are actually one of the more hypoallergenic breeds out there, and many who are "allergic to dogs" will find that Kees fur does not bother them.

Newt, it sounds like you lead a fascinating life there with your sheepdog training and herding. Thanks again for sharing those details. I would have added more, last night, as I said except our company arrived. So - I am grateful you clarified. :)

I supposed we could go on and on to whether dogs should be selectively bred into pure "breeds" at all, or whether the Dog Show should exist (which is specifically to decide which dogs whould be bred whatsoever, and rule out those with "inbreeding" problems such as hip dysplasia and other crummy genetic results, due to the fact that to "create" a breed, all breeds are inbred quite extensively), and so on.... but the main thing I am vehemently against, which we ran into all too frequently in the rural Midwest where people could get away with it more easily - easier to hide the business, is the "puppymill" ... which are quite illegally run businesses and create horrors untold for the animals involved.

Without going into the horrors and the stories I've witnessed with my own eyes or through the eyes of my rescue friends -- basically - PLEASE ... never NEVER buy a puppy from a "pet store."   How much is that doggie in the window? Oh.... far too much a price for the animals involved - the moneymaking efforts of getting it there. I am grateful every time a major pet store chain stops selling puppies. More and more, lately, it is getting down to only the "mom and pop" small stores, or the nasty "pet" stores found in indoor shopping malls. It's been a very long time since I've seen a dog for sale in a store - our rescue group shut down a number of mills in the time I worked with them thankfully... but the practice still goes on. And until it completely stops making money - it will continue.

All right well, that's off the topic of the above story for sure but pertinent to the goals of Save-Me. :)

posted 171 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, I have a question for you. Been wondering about something.

Could free range chickens or wild birds be carrier of bovine tb?

Sorry, if this has been discussed before. 

posted 171 days ago Newt:

I note that Wikipedia say Keeshonds are very playful and easily trained and used as guide dogs for the blind. They are also very intelligent. Sorry apparently they are used in search and rescue! I'll take that back sorry.

Couldn't see one stopping a charging herd of suckler cows though! I'll stick with my collies thanks.

posted 171 days ago Newt:

Linda, Perhaps that's why the police, military, search and rescue and shepherds don't tend to use Keeshonds - or do they in Europe? I don't know ;-)

You are quite right however that most trainers do use food as a reward, especially to start puppy training, but it is very limited in its use. Most trainers quickly move the puppy onto a clicker or other reward system.

But there are certain jobs that you absolutely can't train a dog to do with food as the ultimate goal. Searching for explosives is one clear example! Search and rescue another; especially if that search is for an unconscious new born lamb in thick undergrowth. Stopping a dog stealing food? How would that work? More food? Better food? No all you will end up with is a rather fat useless dog!

Food based reward systems are extremely limited.

What I actually said was that play is ONE of the best methods used to train dogs. It leads to far higher levels of training than one could achieve with food alone.

Having trained sheep dogs for years I can tell you that we only use food for the very basics such as 'come here' and 'sit', for advanced stuff like 'come by' or ' way to me' or 'fetch torch' or if we get round to it 'fetch beer' you absolutely need to turn it into a game. But with a high energy, intelligent and highly motivated breed like a collie, all this is relatively easy. My son had his sister's dog Sally fetching a torch for him on the third try! I haven't told him about 'fetch beer' yet!

But yes it does depend on breed and the individual too. Some collies are quite shy of getting too close to big animals. This is often down to up bringing though. Mine grow up with livestock and learn through play, right from the start, how close they can get to cattle for example. What you need is a dog that it is not afraid to turn a charging bull. That takes a great deal of play and confidence and seeing other dogs do it. My old bitch and her son will go in every time too hard sometimes! The two younger bitches will go in close enough to divert the charge and are quick enough to get out of the way of flying hooves and battering heads. But only the strongest dog will stop even the most angry charge. That you could never, ever train a shy dog to do, however hard you fed it or with any amount of affection. That takes guts and determination and lightening reflexes built through play.

The fact that the same dogs will lie motionless while a young calf licks them is only possible through play and the knowledge the dog has that it can get away if things turn nasty. Because to a small dog like that, even a calf can look huge.

All mammals learn through play - this is a fact. The reward for play? Well you can call it what you like, fun, pleasure, excitement, adrenalin; but what it really comes down to is the body making the individual glad to do it. All hunters learn this way. All prey animals learn to escape this way. Whatever your views on hunting, man kind is NOT the only species that hunts for pleasure, although I accept that man kind take it to a whole new level.

posted 171 days ago Linda Adams:

Goodness, so many interesting points to come back to! :)
Thank you all for the well-wishes. Most, most appreciated.

@Betina - the heart thing works here??!! {test heart : <3 } It's made by putting this "<" and this "3" together withOUT a space between - < 3 = <3 (if that worked....) 

@Jasmine - oh my, a kindred spirit - we have the same favourite song/performance. :-) Somewhere I once saw the rehearsal tape for this... but I don't know if it stayed up on YouTube... or should have. If you look closely here, Freddie's written on his hand like he used to in the old days - if I'm not mistaken ... to get the Hungarian words correct. (See early footage of Killer Queen if you don't know the little trick I'm talking about) - LOL! Endearing ... to me anyway. :) All right enough diversion off-topic...

Regarding dog training: things I learned during my years in Keeshond rescue. (If you don't know - do Google - they are a beautiful Dutch breed of dog) The Keeshond was specifically bred to be a companion animal to ride along on barges. As such nearly ALL "hunting instinct" has been bred OUT of the Keeshond breed. A Keesie - more often than not - even the puppies - will just look at a ball when you throw it. They will NOT play fetch. You can Google & second-research me on this - but I've seen it dozens of times.

I must go- company's arrived - but - also to correct - no, dog trainers DO almost ALWAYS reward with food, very small bits of food and very often dried beef liver as a tremendous treat. Also praise - but yes: FOOD. Must go = will check in later with you all!

posted 171 days ago Newt:

Okay guys, some fair points but wild generalisations too I think. I keep trying to leave this conversation but it's just too good to miss, thanks guys!

Okay chickens, in a rabbit hutch? Mmm Dom have you seen my chickens? We currently have six hens and two cocks, separated by a river and about an acre of woodland. One chicken hut is 6' x 6' x 6' and they are released in the morning to roam at will in the wood, but usually race down to the house to scratch about near us. The other is 12' x 8' x 6' and they also have a wood to roam in, but tend to spend the day wandering about the sheep yard and cow shed, picking corn out of the straw. Never clipped their wings or their beaks and only shut them up at night to stop the predators getting them. The oldest is about 9 and the youngest about 5. They used to roost in a tree, but those nearly all got eaten. The ducks were totally free range and often slept on the pond (about half an acre) and were safe there, but for the odd mink attack or heron. We lost most ducks when they sat on eggs, usually in hidden nests in deep undergrowth where (coincidentally) they were most often prey to badgers. Intensive farming? No about as wild as you can get...really... so please don't use that as the excuse, or type cast me, but as I say any fault is mine. So I agree with you both, if I introduce a ready meal, they'll take it, my fault entirely.

Dogs; indeed what you say may well be true, but you are kidding yourselves if you think all play is down to domestication - you need to spend more time with wild animals. The badger cubs here are a delight to watch in spring when they are playing and their behaviour is very close to that of puppies and they even sound like puppies when they play.

Wild animals - golden eagles; totally agree Dom, but they are not the introduced species that I was talking about. Wolves and Lynx on the other hand or in truth anything capable of taking down a red deer (which was what we were talking about) is perfectlly capable of killing a child. As for not putting children in with them? Really? What about children who already live in remote places, don't they count? Come, come gentleman, stick to the subject; I said someone living in town and deciding to release top apex predators into someone elses territory is being selfish. I absolutely stand by that! What right have you  to decide that? Happily none! And long may it be so!

How would you feel if I released an apex predator into your back yard?

Oh ah isn't it pretty, as it munches its way through Dom's leg! Well he shouldn't have been there! Didn't he know that wolves lived in Wolverhampton (or where ever) thousands of years BD (before Dom). Works two ways you know.

However...in the right place and equally protected from people and people elsewhere protected from them, I would quite like to see wild wolves and lynx, but under British law it would be ilegal to release such a predator with live deer to hunt in an enclsure however big. I enjoy seeing red kites and would love to see the sea eagles, so I have no problem with releasing birds of prey.

One last point and I shall retire for the night; if you saw my home, you would I'm sure feel even more that we are encroaching on the wild and I have been accused of doing so many times. But in reality, I have brought the wild to my home, planting trees right up to the edge of the house in what was once open farm land. King fishers purch in the trees that I have planted on the edge of the pools I have dug everyday and today one sat outside the lounge window for ages, until a walker came into the wood beyond and our dogs all barked.

Badger and foxes, otters and mink, deer and hares all frequent our wood and often walk right past the front door and I really love it and despite what you all think, most of the time we all live in perfect harmony, but you can keep your wolves and your lynx and yes I do know that there has never been a recorded case of wolves actually actively hunting people, but if you want these top predators, move somewhere like this and set it up yourselves.

Desperately sorry to see Anita out of Strictly, what a shame, our Saturday nights will seem duller without her.

Newt

posted 171 days ago George:

Hm yes Newt I don't think we're actually in disagreement here.

With a dog chasing a ball - this raises a lot of points but I'll be brief. Dogs are eternally stuck in the 'adolescent' stage of development. They do not progress to adulthood as their wolf ancestors do. This means that, like young wolves, they will often chase anything that moves as a means of practising for hunting. For wolves this is extremely important to the learning process of hunting. But as we, humans, artificially locked dogs in this stage they do not progress beyond it as they naturally should.

Domestic, human altered predators do not abide by the same rules as natural predators, we made sure of that. This applies I'm sure to the cat behaviour you noted as well.

I agree with Dom on one point also. If someone is going to unnaturally flock together what are essentially massive blocks of meat, its their responsibility to protect them from the predators on whose land they've encroached. That's just  my opinion.

posted 171 days ago Dom:

My final point is, of course I would nt want my children to be attacked by a wild animal, but then I would 'nt put them in the position that they could be. Surely thats irresponsible?

I dont know I dont have kids but if Im in the lions den filming so be it but if I sent my kid or any youngster to film and they got attacked then it would be my fault surely?

And what wild animal have we in Britain which would attack anyone? rutting stags are all that I can think of outside the fantasy realm of the Daily mail.

Bulls, rams and dogs are the others. We have more attacks via domestic animals than wild for sure.

posted 171 days ago Dom:

Also my sympathy for chicken keepers is at best thin.

If you are going to keep chickens in a wooden rabbit hutch then what do they expect? The chicken keepers should be prosecuted because they are breaking one the five animal freedoms.

Also chickens and fowl escape by flying into trees and what do chicken keepers do, clip the wings. 

And if you keep hamburgers on show, expect starving people to come and try and steal them. Most chicken keepers I know at best keep their animals in poor protective shelter.

No wild animal should suffer for domestic animals, not in this day and age. 

Going back to Tb , should badgers be culled because of alpacas, an animal which does'nt even belong in the UK and is at best a fancy. Not in my opinion.

Sure I feel sorry for chickens , they are bright lovable creatures but the reason they get eaten is by wild animals is the owners fault who most of the time will eat them anyhow. Alpacas are gorgeous animals but should an alpaca owner really have any right to condem our badgers for their self interest? 

And lets be honest, a fox killing a chicken is a mercy compared to an industrial farm battery.

posted 171 days ago Dom:

Hi,

I think one point Id like to add is that putting domestic and wild animals in the same group is wrong.

A cat will play because it is well fed, it still has the need to burn off energy and practice its instincts. However most full cats will sleep. 

A dog has had over a 1000 years of domestication, so its not actually that strange they will favour toys. If a puppy or dog is getting praise from its alpha (ie-the human) for playing with a ball it will repeat the process. Like wise if it got praise for biting you it would do so again becasue it thinks this is what it should do.

Interestling dogs and cats are simply not growing up as quickly as they use to, they are staying in puppy hood for far longer, so its not a natural parameter anyhow

This is how you can make a dog nasty if you like by praising at certain times.

The only real natural canine behaviuor is wild Wolfs, dingos, etc because they have to survive

On another note-we need predators for a food chain to wrok effectively.

And yes if someone in scotland is poisoning golden eagles, I think they shoudl be sent to prison. No I dont have to live with them but they are still my concern, like anyones. What right have they they to extinguish this animals life and deprieve othe rpeople from sharing the earth with it, to damage our environment.

Is it ok for the poachers in africa who have now wiped out the black rhino, not to be concerned about it?

Should I not be concerned about farm birds because i dont live on a farm and so on. Should we not be concerned the 700 odd mountain gorillas left? 

I dont live by the sea so should I care about the fact that the ocean could be effectively dead in 50 years. Of course I should as it effects weather, acid rain, food chains, which we need.

And yes nature is cruel, A praying mantis will eat its prey live while they are stills struggling, but it is also incredible. and if it didnt catch prey we would be overun with flies. Likewise if apex predators didnt hunt herbivores, deer and bison would have stripped the plains clean .We cant just pick and choose whats exceptable in nature.

It has no morals, no value for our pathetic little whims on what is right and wrong. It does'nt even care about us. 

Anyway hope you are all well?

best

Dom

posted 171 days ago Newt:

Thanks Betina, can't do that heart thing, but there you go!

posted 171 days ago Newt:

Okay George, I'm not really disagreeing with you to be fair, but why does the dog chase a ball? Pleasure or food? Instinct or lerned behaviour? Probably a little of all those things. So I suppose what starts a puppy off chasing the ball when it has never seen one before? I realise that some call that the hunting instinct or hunting reflex, but surely after the puppy has found that eating the ball doesn't do anything for him, then why keep doing it? Pleasure perhaps?

To train a dog, one of the best ways is through making him think that it is all a game. So when the police train dogs to search for explosives or drugs, what do they use? Food? No because the puppy would go on to eat it. Not good in either case, hence they use the reward of a favourite TOY. It's a game. Why do we play? Tell any class of thirteen year olds that they are to play a game to learn something...No we play for pleasure. Learning from play is an added benefit. That's all I'm saying.

But you are right, humans take it to a whole new level of that I agree totally.

posted 171 days ago George:

Newt,

I've heard the fox killing a hut of chickens argument many many times. Yes, if you unnaturally group together many prey animals a predator would, and should kill them all. What's important to note is that if the fox, or whatever predator, was able to store and use all the animals it has killed, it would. But a farm is a dangerous environment for a fox and they know this. Instinctively they will kill as many as possible, but with those same instincts they are likely to leave many of them due to the risk that is associated with human presence.

I am certain, and you can confirm this with any wildlife biologist or the likes, is that all predators killing revolves around their need to subsist on the kill. Even if it seems a very distant relationship between the killing and the subsisting, it is always there. They do not hunt solely for pleasure in the way that we do. Our intelligence means that we can kill in whatever way we want, animals are driven by instinct.

Regarding cats - I don't know much, or anything really about cat behaviour so I can't answer that. My speciality is dogs... Cats bewilder me, lol.

Anyway I agree with a lot of what you say by the way.

posted 171 days ago George:

Newt,

I've heard the fox killing a hut of chickens argument many many times. Yes, if you unnaturally group together many prey animals a predator would, and should kill them all. What's important to note is that if the fox, or whatever predator, was able to store and use all the animals it has killed, it would. But a farm is a dangerous environment for a fox and they know this. Instinctively they will kill as many as possible, but with those same instincts they are likely to leave many of them due to the risk that is associated with human presence.

I am certain, and you can confirm this with any wildlife biologist or the likes, is that all predators killing revolves around their need to subsist on the kill. Even if it seems a very distant relationship between the killing and the subsisting, it is always there. They do not hunt solely for pleasure in the way that we do. Our intelligence means that we can kill in whatever way we want, animals are driven by instinct.

Regarding cats - I don't know much, or anything really about cat behaviour so I can't answer that. My speciality is dogs... Cats bewilder me, lol.

Anyway I agree with a lot of what you say by the way.

posted 172 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thank you Jasmine for the vid. Have not seen that before only read about it, seeing it I had tears in my eyes. Not because he's no longer here, not because of nostalgia but because of the effort put into it.

Newt, I know your're not standing up for hunting, you do have big softy places in your heart and I really appreciate that.

posted 172 days ago Newt:

Just to be clear, I am not supporting or standing up for hunting. I was merely pointing out a truth. Animals do hunt for fun and do get pleasure from it and I agree totally with what you say here George except one thing, your interpretation of it.

I hate to say it but when a fox or a badger gets into a hut full of chickens (OR a mink, stoat or ferret) they kill everything that they can get to. Foxes do collect heads, they do take them away and they do store them up. All this I have seen. I am not putting value judgements on it, it is a fact of life. That is all. Personnally I consider when this happens to my stock, that it is the price  we pay for living in this beautifull place. But it does make me angry and it is upsetting and the only blame I have for anything is for myself for letting it happen. The fox, badger, stoat, mink, or whatever was just behaving naturally. In the last year or so we have lost every single one of our seventeen ducks including our 14 year old drake that managed to survive it all. I will not be replacing them.

Just as a note, foxes tend to bite off heads, badgers tend to gut their kills. Mink are like vacuums, hoovering up everything in the river that moves. I once had one chase a live rat through my legs, past my 4 sheep dogs and up the river bank, where it finally caught the poor rat under a rock with much screaming from the rat. Being a big softy I tried to protect the rat! Why???? Frankly it is usually a pleasure to hear our owls tooting because they eat rats and those things are a damned nuisance!

My dogs went after the mink and it bit one on the nose and ran off!

One year, many years ago when I worked on a trout farm, we went out one morning when there was ice on the ponds, and there were several THOUSAND dead fingerlings (finger sized trout 100/lbs stage) on the ice. Everyone had had its throat riped out by a mink. There were also tracks everywhere. It looked like that mink had had great fun!

Furthermore if animals don't go out to kill for fun, explain why a well fed pet cat will go out and catch a live mouse or bird and then torture it for hours before finally getting bored and walking off without eating it? But if you go near the cat it growls and takes away its prey?

I think that what separates us from animals is the fact that we have the intelligence to consider what effect our behaviour has on others and refuse to do something that we see as wrong, even if we might feel animalistic urges to do it. So One might see a need to put an animal down, but that does not make its necessary to do it savagely and torture it first. As humans, we know that there is a right way to do something and a wrong way. That is what I was trying to say about conscience.

People here display that conscience and say 'I refuse to be part of a system that routinely inflicts pain.' Behaviour like that, makes you all humane. Cats and dogs don't usually exhibit any such feeling. That is what separates us - in my opinion. I was not trying to upset or offend anyone and I can see that my behaviour might be seen as that, so I will stop there.

That's all I have to say on the subject of hunting.

Linda, I hope you feel better soon.

Take care,

Newt

PS that woke you all up!

posted 172 days ago Jasmine:

As for a previous conversation :) One of my greatest memories ever is listening to Night at the Opera vinyl with headphones in the dark after my parents had gone to bed. It was fantastic for me at age four, as music like that built super highways in the brain for my imagination. To this day I've no need for recreational drugs :D If there's a perfect definition of magic, The Prophet's Song and Bohemian Rhapsody surely must have a place there. Freddie Mercury is an absolute legend. This one is my favourite:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqouPRe_9I4

posted 172 days ago Jasmine:

Really excellent points from everyone, we're all on the journey together, but I do actually see that humans hunting for survival is actually quite common. Saskatchewan teaches Aboriginal Canadian culture as standard, we're all taught very young that Aboriginal elders promote respect for each animal as a being with rights equal to our own... Taking a life is only acceptable out of our own survival needs, where as much of the animals body can be used as possible. We've all got our place along the spectrum, so I speak from my own little spot but I believe there are cases when killing an animal for survival can be justified. Killing for "sport" or fashion specifically is nonsensical.

As for animals killing for pleasure I actually agree with bits from both sides. I've seen that Big Cat Diary you mentioned, Newt. Cheetah cubs need to learn to hunt for their own survival. They need to practice to hone their skills, so of course if they have a baby Thomson's Gazelle, they will let it go and catch it, let it go and catch it until they feel the lesson is over. This training is work for their own survival, but on the other hand, they will feel pleasure after making a catch, as this is a great achievement for a cub. The difference I see is this; cheetahs will feel pleasure after making a catch and they'll subsequently eat their prey. Humans who hunt foxes for pleasure or "sport" will not eat their prey. Their hounds (the ones deemed worthy of survival by humans), starved deliberately, will instead devour the creature. This is pure cruelty to both hound and prey.

posted 172 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Perhaps small chicken farmers should count the heads next time a fox has broken the barriers and gone shopping for food.... there might be one head missing. Used for wall decoration in fox's den and then admired by other foxes. The friend would say: "That's a big beauty you got their, fantastic beak it has, well done". And the trophy owner would say: "Yeah, those bloddy chickens, they're so many of them these days all causing awful noises in our villages, we just have to control the numbers aren't we, before they taken over our territory and poisening our land and peace...."

Oh well, perhaps a bit lame it is, but thing is, humans in rich civilised countries do not have an excuse for hunting wild species, or half wild species they've breeded and released. It doesn't matter if we could prove that certain non-human species killed for fun. So what? - it doesn't give us the green light to do it too. We have sports now and all sports that does not include tormenting and killings can be a perfect substitute for hunting. It creates the same emotions and feelings and requires more or less the same brain capacity :) Tactic, thrill, excitement, exaltation, dissapointment/celebration and admiration.... it's human recreation and should not involve suffering and killings of other species.

We, in this age of civilasations and enlightenment, have no reason for hunting at all. No reason. We must try and find other non-lethal solutions to the problems in our nature and I strongly believe it's all a matter of will.

Linda, you speak wise and very beautifully:) Lots of happy thoughts and healing wishes - Stay strong ♥ B

posted 172 days ago Linda Adams:

@George, Newt, Steve.... fascinating conversation. I did not know all this about sheep falling on their backs. I did know about crows' fascination for eyeballs first. (bleh) I do know - a British friend of mine on Facebook complained last month that a fox got his nesting chicken and he was trying desperately to save and hatch the eggs. (I haven't heard how that turned out, yet) I'm sure that fox was hungry and didn't do it for sport or malice. But I'm also sad for the nest. I can see why this person is angry with wild foxes right now.

Anyway, I'm sure the tup was very grateful for the rescue. I'm grateful the time was taken to get out of the car and help. Thanks for that... it mattered to that tup very much.

@Steve especially - thanks for noticing me :) .... yes caring can be stressful, difficult and depressing. Different issues caused my recent fatigue, but yes - it's a hard fight. But one we can't stop fighting.

The word we had to live by in the years I did Keeshond Rescue and fostered dogs for Rescue & the Humane Society, sadly, was, "you can't save them all." But... that's what I mean about standing strong each in our own little corner we are given, fighting for truth and light and goodness to prevail. Somewhere, always -- will be a creature (or tree!) we cannot save or help.

But somewhere, always -- if we are looking for it - will be opportunity to save, and help where we can. As the stories on this page show. It matters to the one. A great deal. 

posted 172 days ago George:

Newt - FYI animals do not hunt FOR pleasure. They do however get pleasure (I wouldn't use that word myself) out of hunting. This is a result of selection and is significant to subsistence and survival.

Regarding the behaviour you noted in cheetahs - this is an extremely important behaviour for them. It ensures the cubs learn to hunt from an early age as possible, it is no game, its survival. Similar behaviours occur in most predators, if not all mammalian predators. They do get pleasure out these behaviours yes but it is not FOR pleasure, it is for future subsistence and survival.

This is what separates us from other predators. We do hunt purely for pleasure, and in the large majority of cases we do not hunt for necessary subsistence. When it comes to nonhuman predators all behaviour revolves around necessary subsistence - I'm yet to find an exception of this.

posted 173 days ago Newt:

No not at all Steve, where did I say humans aren't selfish?

Animals do hunt for pleasure, oh yes they do, absolutely. Pleasure is the electro chemical reaction generated by the body by things like endorphins (is that the right spelling?)when a creature is stimulated by something in its environment. For example the smell, taste, sight or touch of food. It is a natural response that encourages the instinct. All creatures are hard wired (if you like) with the instinct to go for food. This is what motivates young animals to first chase something. An old predator may lose the "pleasure" factor of the chase to some extent and just go straight for the kill, but the young of every single predator on the planet experience "pleasure" when their prey first tries to escape them. Only with practice do they get to the next level - the kill. Watch cats - on Big Cat Diary they once showed a mother cheetah with three cubs, she brought them a fawn to "play" with. At first they just chased it when it ran. Eventually they killed it. Play. All species of animal, herbivore to carnivore, learn through play. Even lambs in the field learn through play, but in their case it is as much about escape as attack.

Going back to selfish humans, is it not selfish of someone who lives in a town (all be it a small one) to say that people living elsewhere (say the Highlands) should have to deal with top of the food chain predators just because the first person doesn't like killing? What if this predator killed your child? Would you not say that the person who lived elsewhere but elected for you to have that predator in your environment was being selfish?

No I was taking issue with your concept of intelligence, from your previous post. Indeed there are many levels and degrees of intelligence as you quite rightly say. Many of these can be measured. The higher species (by higher I am refering to a list of creatures where the most intelligent are higher up the list) can recognise themselves (self recognition in a mirror for example), their group and the feelings of others within that group. So for example humans, elephants, gorillas, chimps and dolphins (not an exclusive list) can all recognise the needs of an orphan within their group and will take the time and trouble to protect such an infant without being its parent. This is one measure of greater intelligence.

Few species demonstrate having a conscience - that was my point and I stand by it.

As for you hating the word "animal"; this is a simple, inoffencive word that can be used to describe a living organism other than a plant, or fungi. I get your point and have some sympathy for it, but tell me this, when you are teaching your children to read or write (or when you taught them if you already have children) how are you going to explain to a four year old the difference between a dog and a tree?

Surely if the dog breaks his leg then you would help him, but it the tree broke one of its limbs, would you help that too? (Incidently I have done just that, but then I am a nutter as you know. and the tree did recover).

posted 173 days ago StevenAult:

Newt, are you suggesting that humans are not selfish and operate with compassion and conscience? I'm not sure if that's true. We are one of only a handfull of species who actually kill for 'pleasure'. Most other species do this for territory or food. I certainly don't think we can claim the moral high ground over any species. 'Animals' are killed by us for food and fur in the most horrendous ways. They are also subjected to disturbing experiments aimed at saving our sorry behinds. We ARE selfish. It's selective breeding which has given livestock human dependence. It's rather tragic that they can't correct themselves if they fall on their backs.

I was watching Autunmwatch last night and I was dissapointed with the rather biased way in which they addressed the issue of red deer culling. As usual we heard all the smokescreen stories about needing to cull to protect their own habitats because they have no natural predator. 350,000 deer are culled every year for this reason? Bolderdash! It's all about hunting and the business it generates. Those red deer are being culled in Scotland to prevent the overgrazing of heathland because it harms the lucrative grouse shooting business. High deer numbers are encouraged for stalking. Why don't they reintroduce deer predators? Because it will harm the all important 'game' shooting businesses that's why! If deer did have natural predators their breeding would still be encouraged for hunting. The only thing that seperates us from the 'animals' Newt is our own ignorance. Why do we use the word 'animal' to describe millions of very different species? I hate the word. That's why I use inverted commas when I use it. Non human species is better. 'Animal' is a dirty word for me. Sorry to hear about the fatigue problems Linda. Caring is stressfull and depressing.

posted 173 days ago Newt:

Steve,

Here's one for you; the other day while rushing to get to the post office before the postman, I noticed a sheep on its side in a neighbour's field, with a crow on the wall above it and a crow on the ground by the sheep's head. A familiar sight I'm afraid and my first reaction was that the sheep must be dead. Just then the crow delivered a very hard peck to the sheep's eye and the sheep jumped trying to get up. It couldn't because it was rigged.

Slamming my breaks on (the road was empty but for me) I threw the van into reverse and backed up to the gate. As I approached the two crows flew off. The sheep turned out to be a tup (ram) and he had clearly been rigged for a few hour judging by the mud scratched up where he had been trying to get his feet to the ground to turn himself over. I have often spoken of this here before here and advised that people here should always try and put a sheep back on its feet, because when they get on their backs they are unable to do so themselves and will eventually die. Had I not been in such a rush I would have normally stopped myself.

The tup was fine, but both his eyes were bleeding heavily as the crow had pecked the eye lid savagely on both sides and the conjuctive membrane of one eye was heavily scratched but un broken.

I helped him to his feet and he stumbled and fell again. I helped him up again and leaning on me, he managed to get the blood back into his tired limbs and walk off hesistantly. I went to the farm to tell my neighbour, who is a lovelly old man, who lives all alone and is a little eccentric. We went back and brought the tup home into a warm barn to recover, and while we were loading him (coincidentally) a vixen came running through the field being chased by a dog fox. Lovelly to see, but had I not rescued the old tup, they would have no doubt joined the crows in feasting on his living flesh. Oh yes I have seen this before, with sheep still living, just, their eyes pecked out and their back ends ripped open and their guts dragged out in strings behind them.

Yes all animals have intelligence, all have adapted to feed themselves and all can be very selfish.

I wonder what the tup thought to having the crows peck his eyes out? Clearly he was doing his very best to avoid the blows, by blinking. But eventually concern or curiosity would have got the better of him and he would have opened them to see whether the crow had gone yet and the crow was waiting to deliver the first effective cut. the first of many.

My thoughts; what a horrible way to die, one peck or nip at a time, spread out over many hours while you are powerless to stop it!

I understand that the tup has made a full recovery. The crows probably went on to use the same technique on a less fortunate sheep and the vixen will be pregnant by now. And I still managed to get to the post office in time.

So everyone is happy.

But I wonder if any of those predators involved in this incident will spend any time worrying about the way they would have killed that poor sheep? Perhaps what seperates us as humans is our conscience, not our intelligence.

posted 173 days ago Linda Adams:

Brave Sarah and wonderful dog Rocky!! So pleased to read this story. It brightens my day. All told, I'd have called the police on them anyway for threatening me on my own property - and trespassing - and tried to have them arrested .... but still it does show them up as the cowards they were... oh "we know where you live" -- yes when they're standing in her yard?!!! Bullies.... of the worst degree. But who besides a bully at heart - honestly - persists in fox hunting anyway?? Hmph.

I have been away with chronic fatigue issues over the summer and unable to follow fluent conversation very well for - eh, months - or say anything pertinent or meaningful much. Seems to be improving (yay) and also seems it was medication-related but anyway - so many deal with so much more - I'm just grateful some energy -- and thought processes!!! are returning. Glad to read this story.

And yes --- I've been missing Freddie on this difficult anniversary week too.
I have a video tribute to him up. I hope it's OK to post here, since other vids of him have been posted. Some of you may appreciate it perhaps. A little joke toward the end... but I didn't think Freddie would have minded... :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OQ3VaL99K8

Thanks and I've missed you all... it's awful not to be able to move much. My Facebook profile pic was of a banana slug (they're awful cute really but not very fast!) for quite a while. ^_^ I'm back to myself now more or less. Hope to check in more. Thankful to those few of you who've found me on FB and that I can check in with there re: how things are going here. Sending you all love, peace, prayers, & cheerful thoughts in the face of pain, illness, loss, bullying, threats... and every other evil.

One day - I must have faith - that good will overcome. As each of us individually stands strong in our personal daily battles - like Sarah did, above, with her good, faithful and loyal dog Rocky.

These seemingly small acts -- but sometimes hard -- though small -- really do matter.

--Linda

posted 173 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I'm so happy I'm not alone, yaii! Shirli, it is a fantastic song and a great vid. I wish I had been there - to a gig with Queen. Steven, I don't know why se seem to think we are the kings and queens of the world and why it's up to us to decide wether a non-human specie needs to die or not. We decide what and who is our enemy and pest and what to do about it. If we looked down on planet earth we would soon discover something looking like ants - the no. one pest, the brutal human.

We are definitely not the only specie who make plans and communicate. It reminds me of this video of elephants communicating and working together to save one of their babies from drowning. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O-BFMcwiY8

posted 174 days ago StevenAult:

I find it frustrating when people say humans are the most intelligent species on the planet and that 'animals' are not as intelligent because they have'nt achieved the same things we have. It's anthropomorphic to judge other species based on our own notions of intelligence. They're not human so why would they have the same type of intelligence we have? Why would they do the same things we do? A bee is intelligent at being a bee. A whale is intelligent at surviving as a whale, and so on. Are humans intelligent at surviving as humans given that we require one and a half earths to meet our resource needs? Even David Attenborough annoyed me when he said "humans are different from animals because we can think rationally and plan ahead". I'm dissapointed with him for this statement. Do squirrels not plan ahead when they bury nuts for the winter? Birds likewise. Surely migration is planning ahead! He's done more than anyone else to promote better knowledge and understanding of the animal kingdom but he should know better than that.

I find it quite absurd that the police are concerned about 'extremist' anti badger cull campaigners. Stopping the killing of badgers is extreme while the mass killing of badgers is acceptable? Who are the extremists here? Who is guilty of extreme behaviour? The anti-cull campaigners or the killers? The police are'nt exactly known for their intelligence though are they?

posted 174 days ago Shirli:

He certainly did... and I don't think people will ever forget him for the beauty he brought to everyone's lives, in the form of both music and kindness. Bless you, Freddie.

This has always been one of my favourite videos of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yILTa34FYR8

xxx

posted 175 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Even if I speak out into the empty space from this abandoned place it seems to be at the moment, I hope someone pops by and remembers him, that created the most wonderful and timeless music of all time together with his musical brothers in the best band that has ever existed. Apparently heaven needed his skills and his heart but we must be grateful that he was here. The music he left will live forever and so will he and I thank you Brian and Roger for being a part of keeping it all alive.

"I tell you, when it comes to that duet, Is This The World We Created, it's an integral part of what's going on, and the song seems to convey a lot of what the event [Band Aid] is about. I think that's probably going to bring tears to my eyes when we do it. I'll have to make sure I do it properly". From; Freddie Mercury in his own words

And so he did!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUOrAengPH8&ob=av3e

With love B

posted 177 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Gavin Wheeler

Please, if you see this go to my thread 'How many cows are actually sick? And somethng about Bang's method'. I finally have some questions to the the chart made by the guy from BT 'Data for the premature culling of dairy cattle over two years of age in GB 2008'

... and if anyone else know about these things or have an opinion, please join in.

posted 177 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

What's up Judi? Did your fox watch went alright and are you safe and sound?

posted 178 days ago Judi Hewitt:

This government are pure evil!!!

posted 179 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Oh Galadriel, Lady of the Golden Wood...  this is amazing. The day has come, where you have to be a member of the NFU to get the opportunity for participating in a project where badgers are vaccinated!!!The wonders of this world goes on, indeed. Let's sharpen the pencil and start writing it down - in the the Book of Happy History. Thanks Newt, you made my day ;) ♥ 

posted 180 days ago Newt:

No Steve, Newt had nothing to do with this; John Royle and Simon Boulter have set this up themselves and should have full credit for it. I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that the rest of us should support them shouldn't we? I've written an email to John offering my own farm, but I suspect that it will not meet their requirements. If it does, I will help in anyway I can. Not being a member of the NFU might count to - in which case I will have to join!

Be careful Judi, carry a tape recorder in your pocket and learn how to switch it on without being seen.

posted 180 days ago StevenAult:

Really wish I could help with your monitoring Judi. Brave woman to do that alone! Great news on the joint badger vaccination. Is that the result of Save-Me coordinated meetings helped by Newt? Well done to all those involved. Some TV shows are being staged outside the UK now to avoid our stricter laws on health and safety, and 'animal' cruelty. Ever wondered why 'Total Wipeout' is staged in Argentina? 'I'm a Celebrity' sends a dreadful message to viewers that these creatures can be abused and killed for entertainment. It's a scandal really. They play on people's irrational fears of insects and spiders and promote cruelty by reinforcing these fears.  

posted 180 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I doubt Australia would ban 'I'm a celebrity, cos they send sheep on long exhausting journeys to be slaughtered in countries where even people don't have rights. Mind you the Uk are exporting pigs to China, and we are still fighting to stop foxes being tormented and torn to shreds for entertainment by hunts, so why would a country like Aus bother to defend rats, mice and insects? Problem is, people are too apathetic, and as long as they are okay jack, then they can turn the other way and pretend it isn't happening. I'm out monitoring the Flint & Denbigh hunt on my own, here in North Wales (most of the time) and it can be very unnerving, so if there is anyone who lives in Denbighshire and is willing to help me - then please get in touch.

Thanks.

posted 180 days ago Raindance:

Newt, I quite agree with Betina about vaccinating "your" badgers. I think you should be a beacon in this initiative. Then people will see.

Here's an interesting article from the Yorkshire Post (12 November 2011 issue) I picked up through Badger Trust email notifications. It is about research to breed cattle that are resistent to btb. Over many generations, farmers have bred farmed animals for different things and this is just one proposal in the fight against btb.  Is it viable? Is it a step too far?

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/at-a-glance/main-section/world_on_brink_of_cow_tb_breakthrough_1_3963031

posted 180 days ago Newt:

Yes I think you are right, I'll talk to John about it.

posted 180 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, on second and third thought or more, I do think the badgers around your farm should be vaccinated. 

Yeah, your farm ought to be a part of this project. And farms like yours, where the badgers are clear, should be participating in this as soon as possible, cause then more and more wouldn't have to worry if the badgers will get it. 

You could all be focussing then on all the other preventive steps. There's so many.

posted 181 days ago Dom:

Good luck guys and well done all involved.

posted 182 days ago Jen:

Badger Trust Press Releases almost invariably posted in News on Save-Me site - HERE:

The last Badger Trust Press Release can be found at:
PRESS RELEASE: NFU and Badger Trust work on joint TB vaccination project

Jen

posted 182 days ago Raindance:

This is excellent news, and we hope it will lead to a good outcome, especially for our badgers.

posted 182 days ago Newt:

Good question! No it isn't, it should be, shouldn't it? But then we are outside the infected area and it might be better to save these badgers for another little project we're working on using a different method of vaccinating...mmm I'll wait and see I think. The badgers here are safe enough right now, I hope!!!! Sorry can't say any more - but it is all good news I think. I hope and pray.

Newt

posted 182 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I mean - not much difference in content... substance is a better word, I think. ARRR the english word! Sorry folks, I'm trying hard. Too hard perhaps:)

posted 182 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Not much difference in context, Newt... I know NFU and Badger Trust are not exactly a loving pair, but at least they're trying to cooperate. If I am carried away it's because of that:)

Are your farm a part of this project Newt?

posted 182 days ago Newt:

Try:

http://www.fwi.co.uk/Articles/15/11/2011/130100/NFU-and-Badger-Trust-join-forces-on-TB.htm

This explains a bit better. Please don't get too carried away Betina; you need to look at this in context. We have a lot of work to do yet, but this is a start.

Take care,

Newt

posted 182 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Fantastic news, Newt! Thank you:)

It's always a relieve when two sides call a truce. May this grow and last.

posted 183 days ago Newt:

Just in case you missed it:

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/nfu-and-badger-trust-join-forces-on-vaccination-project/42991.article

posted 183 days ago Alison Cooper:

I know this area well, its a fabulous park in a wonderful city. The minority will only survive if we allow them too. People ask me all the time *why do you care*, if they have to ask that then they really dont understand. Well done Sarah Hockey, im on your side.

posted 184 days ago StevenAult:

It's very difficult to stand up to people acting cruelly, especially when you're in a minority situation. I do it here in Bridlington defending seagulls and pigeons. I know I'm right when I confront people but I'm made to feel like a wierdo. I'm told they're rats with wings. A member of the RSPB said that to me the other day! Idiot. Am I the only person concerned about 'I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here'? It hardly promotes respect for 'animals' does it? Huge viewing figures too. Not good. Abusing 'animals' just for the purpose of entertainment is disgraceful. Australia should ban ITV from staging the show there. I think we need a campaign.

posted 185 days ago Jasmine:

Hey Dom, so sad the West African Black Rhino hasn't been seen since 2006, but the other three subspecies are still hanging in there... barely. Hopefully this will act as a wake up call to protect the critically endangered species. Unfortunately it is seen as the more aggressive rhino, so it's more attractive to poachers.

posted 185 days ago Dom:

Poaching / hunting and lack of conservation is sited as the reason.

posted 185 days ago Dom:

On a somber note-the African Black Rhino is declared extinct last week.

posted 186 days ago Jasmine:

She's a brave soul! Wow, I'm imagining the kind of courage it takes to stand one's ground against such ruthless people. That shows a heart of gold. Well done Sarah and Rocky :) I think we're seeing the countryside slowly change colour from the shrinking support of the hunting pink. Hopefully my children will be able to enjoy lush green serenity in their home country when these frightening scenes are left behind in history books forever!

posted 186 days ago Gavin Wheeler:

"One of them threatened me and said he knew where I lived, and to keep my nose out of their business."

That should have resulted in an instant call to the police. Such behaviour, especially to the landowner or tenant on private property, is unacceptable whatever your beliefs on fox hunting.

posted 186 days ago Dom:

Good on you! You did well to stand your ground. Two men trying to intimidate a lady is pathetic. Not being sexist here I hope. 

I mean what sort of men would do this and if they are in your garden then THEY should be minding there own business.

If you do get any trouble don't be silent call out.

posted 187 days ago Raindance:

Off-topic for a moment, if you will allow me. My little band of friends and I have signed the two petitions mentioned in the "other news" section about Miss Lucas's Private Members Bill on Tax and Financial Transparency and the one to reform live animal exports.  We're circulating these on facebook and twitter as well in the hope that enough signatures are gathered to help make a difference. 

posted 189 days ago maureenbahia:

Sarah, you and Rocky are true heroes, what an inspiration for all of us!

posted 189 days ago George:

Fantastic. I think anyone here would stand with Sarah and her dog Rocky in this situation. Instincts kick in with all good people to prevent suffering, can't say the same for the hunters.

posted 189 days ago Shirli:

It certainly is empowering and heart-warming to read these stories and know that there are people out there really taking action and making a difference, but it's true, the hunters really do come down on people who 'interfere' with an iron fist - if you've watch the video Brian posted on this site of the trailer for the Minority Pastime film (it's still on the We Support/Links section), you'll know that these incidents aren't as isolated as we'd hope... It would be really gratifying if we could put a stop to this; that's why it's important to help get funding for investigators who go into these dangerous situations to help put a stop to these people and their indecent and ILLEGAL activities.

xxx

posted 190 days ago Raindance:

This is wonderful.  I'm so pleased the fox escaped. Miss Hockey deserves a medal for being so brave to stand up to those people.  And Rocky, too. Such a handsome, courageous animal protecting his mistress. 

This story, although heart-warming, is quite disturbing.  The lady who keeps a farm of goats, Sam, posted here some time ago about the threats made to her by her (then) local hunt when she refused to allow it to hunt on her land.  These cannot be isolated cases, and I wonder how prevalent they are?