posted 297 days ago Judi Hewitt:

And just to add to another mail earlier re iron or the lack of it for vegans. I have never lacked iron through my diet and I have been vegan for a large slice of my life. According to Viva, nobody on a healthy vegan diet should lack iron. I am living proof that you don't need it! Meat is very destructive to the body and is the cause of so much ill health in middle aged and old people. Please check out VIVA for the truth about meat.

As for leather - there are alternatives, so I don't see the problem. And there is very big difference between oil being used up and ending the suffering of billions of animals.

But just incase there are those that would accuse me of being being a bunny hugger - well, I am and proud of it! But I also admire the red indians of old because they needed to kill animals to survive. Farming animals is not acceptable to me because I have seen the suffering and it is very disturbing. Mind you, you have to have a sensitive nature to see and to understand just how much farm animals are forced to endure for a slice of their flesh - and suffer they do!!!!!

Despite what NEWT said, animals suffer greatly in farming and there is no such thing as humane slaughter.

There is very little you miss out on by turning vegan.

posted 297 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I agree with Steven Ault, shooters of animals have a violent mindset and in my view are just as capable of killing people. The only thing stopping most of them is the law. But the mindset is the same. You only have to run into fox hunters when they are out with a pack of dogs ready to shoot any terrified fox they see flushed out. It chills you to the bone when you feel the fear of the animals being hunted. But the excitement and anticipation you see on the faces of the shooters is really very sickening. And it is as if you are not even there watching them - they are so focussed on their possible target. Hunger in their eyes. hopeful that theirs is the first bullet to rip into a fox. The dogs nearly always finish the job off. Such are the sadists that fulfill their bloodlust by killing animals for sport instead of people - but it is a close run thing and there is not a great deal of difference between killing animals and people.

posted 298 days ago Kula:

Wende Anne Maunder

I would be inclined to check the Krebs report before saying that badgers don't give BTB to cattle.

http://www.bovinetb.info/docs/krebs.pdf

Please note that the above file is 4.6 MBytes so will take a minute or two to download.

posted 298 days ago Raindance:

Dom, it is beyond comprehension. Those poor youngsters, and their parents - my mind just stops at such violence.

Wende, thank you for that link to Richard Meyer's piece. It would be great if that view were to prevail.  We just have to keep working away and hoping.  We still have an opportunity to change things.  

posted 299 days ago Dom:

Awlful news in Norway-just horrendous. children, poor poor souls.

Rainforests-It might also be worth noting our Uk forests are in poor health to.

posted 299 days ago StevenAult:

It's not the time for smugness I know but this crazy right wing extremist in Norway had access to guns because of his love of hunting. Derrick Bird was the same. When will people learn? If you have the mindset of a killer, why descriminate? 

posted 299 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

And now the badger story has reached the news in DK. Not in the farmers news, not in science based news and not in the wildlife news.... but on an online forum for hunters called netnature! 

Here they say that if the trial culls are succesful, 70 % of the badger population have to be shot in the next 4 years. That's about 140.000 badgers. I didn't know it was such a large number, I'm shocked. They also say that a corps of selected hunters will get a licens to kill, not one word about that farmers will get these lincens. 

Very odd that the story has ended up in a hunters magazine, do you think they will be arranging hunting tour trips? 

Raindance, I'm aware that large scale farming in the rainforrest are there, DK have they hands on it and many many other rich countries, all I was trying to point out was that the issue isn't all black and white and that poor peoples life depends on turning rain forrest into agricultural land. If we have to fight against it we have to tolerate that some forrest has got to go and focussing on the areas that's meant to feed foreign livestocks. That's totally unnecessary - we don't need to do that. It's scandalous and should end immediateley! Thanks for the link, I'll take a look at it:)

posted 299 days ago Dom:

There is this chaps point of view I just found.

Interesting reading

http://www.badgersandtb.com/

posted 299 days ago Country_Gran:

TO RETURN TO BADGERS:Here is a link which bears out all that we have been saying all along: Badgers don't give BTB to cattle but cattlle do give it to badgers.

http://www.libdemvoice.org/the-independent-view-why-killing-badgers-might-not-be-the-answer-22190.html#comment-154682.

posted 299 days ago Raindance:

It's my favourite time of day - stupid o'clock - those early hours of the morning when I wonder what on earth I'm doing still up.  

Betina, I would just like to pick up on your remarks about the rainforest.  Rather than write a long piece, I would direct you to one of my favourite websites www.mongabay.com.  It belongs to the gloriously named Rhett Butler (I kid you not - he really does bear the name of that fictional character in Gone with the Wind). Mr Butler has a background in mathematics and economics, but he has done a lot of work on rainforests of the world. His website is a treasure chest for all things rainforest, as well as related topics.  It is true that quite a bit of rainforest in South America has been acquired by poor farmers, but the larger part of deforestation in that region is as a result of larger scale agricultural and other pursuits.  Take a look it's very interesting. 

posted 299 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Judi, these are my thoughts. Firstly I will say I'm not defending farmers in any way, I think what you tell is barbaric and old school. I'm very sad to hear about your bad experiences with farmers and I know what you mean, there's a generation of farmers who'd brought up to be very harsh and cruel, but if someone places a feeder on a badger sett, this person must be in real pain, having serious financial problems and therefore just can't tell apart the wrongs and the rights. However, I do think we have to be careful not to generalise, it's so esay to do so and tempting. I believe it's not necesssarily the way all farmes in this world behaves. If you put yourself in the old generation shoes, picturing yourself growing up on a farm where they had to work very hard and many hours a day. Physically a very hard life just to get food on the table every day on not that much else, really. I think they sort of forgot the respect for the animals, their lives sort of harden them, they had no time for carrying about the individual animal. If it was hurt or sick, well then they just shot it..... If we're going a little past 100 years back then most of the children didn't went to school, many parents couldn't read, the news were old yet rumours were flying, some women died giving birth, babies died and woman couldn't vote, people were just different back then. Everything was different.

Looking back on these people, we kind of see them as less civilised. But there were rebels, perhaps some very few who didn't eat meat and had a more Victorian view too, a romantic and artistic view. Those people played a big part in what the world has turned into, the positive parts, free spirits and that we're all equal, that women, children and also animals have there riches and rights. But I think most people had to be hard because life was hard. There's still people who are like that and we on here would call them cruel, ignorent and uncivilised. It has much to do with the upbringing, what they have been told by their parents. You can find such people among farmes now a days, sure, and among fox-hunters and in the whole hunting community. However, I don't think it's right generalising, cause there are better farmers with a much more humane view on life for all beings. It's like saying every men are bastards and that they're treating their women awful, like saying every muslim are fanatic - you just can't say that. For eksampel Newt. He said a lot of things that made me sad and dissapointed and I am much more aware of the words between the lines than you probably think, still I do believe underneath the layers he's a decent guy. Although he might have killed animals and agrees on killing badgers, he's a guy with a great portion of humanity too - of course humanity from his point of view doesn't always fit into the views a lot on here have. There's a lot of farmes like him and I prefere his kind from those who's running the factory farms. A lot of what he and his kind are doing repels me, it does, but it's nothing compared to what they do on larger and much more industrialised farms. Judi, have you talked with biodynamic farmers? It's almost like a religion, in some eyes a bit over the top and even if the animals are being slaghtered eventually, it's a whole other approch to farming.

About cutting down the rain forrest - that issue is not black and white either. You see, we in Europe have also cutted down lots of forrest to feed the people, actually this is why we have been able to multiply ourself as we have, getting the civilisation that we have now. I agree totally that we could have spared many trees if we had chosen to live on a plant diet, and I do not know why we havn't chosen that direction since it's much cheeper and healthier, can it really be becuse of the taste of meat? I don't know. Perhaps a quick fix of protein was the reason, an easy way of getting it? Well, as I said, I don't know but turning forrest land into farmland had played a big part in our survival. People who live in South America close to the rain forrest are poor people, so if they can cut down forrest to feed their villages how can we judge them for doing so? The alternative is poverty and hunger perhaps. I'm sure that these people are working just as hard as the very old generation of farmers has done, again it's landowners, governments and middlemens who get the largest share. Despite of that, small villages, small people will be able to feed themselves by turning rain forrest areas into agricultural land. What can we do about that? We can't telling them to stop doing it. But we can urge them to plant as much as they take, maintaining biodiversity, help them to act humane and thinking ahead (stopping the EU subsidies?). We can be rebels of our time and choose not to eat meat for whatever reason and one of the reason could be to decrease the consumption of meat so that less animals need to be feed and slaghtered so that one day the fields in the rain forrest will produce feed to people and not to animals. Soya for the native and for us. That way they would still have a chance of getting a modern life similar to we have here in Europe. They have as much right to it as we do!

posted 299 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

About the cull. I think in a way you can say, that by not doing anything, not taking a stance, not speaking up - it's like saying it's ok doing it.

I mean the majory is against a cull and many do need to be asked the question for their voices to be heard but then if they're asked and they don't approve - then what does it takes for the government to realise that this is NOT the method the people want? Why do they not care about what the people say? Do they find them ignorant? Worthless? Too silent?

Isn't it then an absolute monarchy?

posted 299 days ago Dom:

Indeed-its a snack bar for foxes. Not only it is also irresponsible for the safety of the hens, who I might add whe I went to see where my local eggs come from are , lovely curiuos, funny creatures with quite the complex social structure. 

Im not 100% sure on this so don't quote me, but in the wild chickens escape foxes, etc by flying into trees, trouble is keepers have there wings clipped...so....

Cull news, Chris Packham is furious over the cull as he was away when it was annouced. So another of the world's top naturalists add their voice. How much pressure can the government take?

posted 299 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Oh yeah that link. On your thread, of course. I thought it was some link on this thread. Scary reading.

Yes, I know about farmers an city people keeping chicken and inviting foxes. Sure they havn't thought it through. If I was a hungry fox and perhaps even with cubs to feed  - I'll do the same. I would be thinking - Fast food!

posted 299 days ago Dom:

You posted a link Betina about GM salmon breeding with wild salmon :-)

Foxes-yes the infamous sport but also many farmers shoot them as well as urban chicken keepers, a new trend whihc is in the UK is to have your own eggs, which is great however some thickos have not taken into account by housing hens in a flimsy wooden coop with basic fencing  (if at all) they   are not save from foxes or badgers. Yet I know a few who have shot foxes because of there irresponsible attitude using badly housing chickens.

Finally the urbanites who litter, leave half eaten kebabs after  a night on the razzle then wonder why foxes are moving into towns and cities? 

Also the lack of secure rubbish bins and open bins, so as you can imagine a few pathetically minded individuals see them as the next  threat since the Cold War Soviet Union and want them shot, or 'controlled' as they say-yet won't modify there behaviuor accordingly.

Our last great wild dog and persecuted they are. Wait until the Wolf pack cometh and it will, it will. And then maybe even whispers of the bear! 

I am an Angry bunny today, more BIG WIG than fiver

posted 299 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, have I said anything about salmon? I don't think so but I can't remember, you know when age hits? It does so now. Are you refering to a link I posted?

And that thing whith the foxes - how is that related to the meat industry? Or is it the sport you mean?

posted 299 days ago Dom:

The reasons to stay veggie raise every day. I was just re-reading an article from a BBC wildlife magazine. BRIAN did you miss this one about Scottish Farmed Salmon?

Over 1000 Grey and Common Seals will be slaughtered each year if they are caught 'poaching' farmed Scottish Salmon. This is a new law which restricts culling to 1300 , before it was unknown how many were killed. 

The Grey Seal is increasing, however the common seal is declining.

So tell people what there salmon is worth-they have the choice seals in the wild or 'farmed' salmon which as Betina pointed out could be a danger to wild salmon.

On a personnal note you would think people would be happy to work in an evironment where they get to see Seals, yet how naive I am. Pathetic.

BADGERS

FOXES

RED KITES

OTTERS 

STARLINGS

CORVIDS (ALL)

to be slaughtered because of the meat and sports industry.

One word PATHETIC!

posted 299 days ago mark williams:

I know this belongs in Betina’s recipe section but i will put it here as everyone is talking soya. Soya milk have you thought about making your own its very easy. Here is a useful link to show you how, it looks a lot of fun and no animal suffered in the making off.

http://video.about.com/dairyfreecooking/Homemade-Soy-Milk.htm

Rain forests, oceans, atmosphere, wildlife and land. Yes perhaps we perceive them as a valuable resources, and to a lot of people a way to make a lucrative living. But a better way to look at at these things, would be to view them as vital infrastructure, vital to all life. Then if we viewed it like we view a hospital or a sewage treatment plant, we may feel less incentive to set fire to it.

posted 299 days ago Raindance:

Dom,  I can't speak for Judi, but the way I read her post reflects my own reading of reports indicating that in South America large tracts of land and rainforest are being used to graze cattle and also grow soya beans (either for animal feed or export to the Far East where soya is much in demand). 

It would not matter whether the soya were fed directly to people.  The point is that rainforest is being de-forested, the trees logged, and the land used for farming.  Whether it is necessary to use the land for farming is another question - probably not.  The rainforest is a very precious resource for the Earth, being the "lungs" of the world, providing certain minerals, as well as a substantial amount of natural medicines.  

Additionally, the land on which the forest grows is often relatively poor quality.  I could go into the soil science quite a bit, but that's quite enough to absorb for the present. If the trees are chopped down, then all the benefits that we derive from the forests, some of which are quite ancient, are taken away. 

posted 300 days ago Dom:

Judi-as for soya fed to animals, I think Steve covered it by saying that if they were directly fed to people there would be more food around. Or is that what you meant?

posted 300 days ago Dom:

BRIAN - Defra said if the cull happens that they will be examining dead badgers to see of they were killed 'humanely' DEMAND a btb test on dead badgers. If it turns out 1000,s of badgers died for no cause, or the results were marginal or ineffectual, then legal action could be an option.

If Defra and the NFU are right then they having nothing to fear about dead badgers being tb tested and it would prove them right.

posted 300 days ago Dom:

Judi-there a string of animal cruelty in Britain which defies belief. On domestic and wild animals.I once met a fortinately re homed English Bull which had urine burns all over because she had been locked in a warddrobe in her own mess.

Animal Lovers is a mantle this country uses only when it fits, when it does'nt inconvience anyone. We shoudl be stripped of this completely false title.

People will reap what they sow. Spiritually I have no idea where these poeple are at.

posted 300 days ago Dom:

Hey I just found the MOST pointless badger article yet.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/jul/20/a-bad-time-for-badgers

Right allow me to rip your writing which would do a 5 year old a dis-service.

1-Who are ya? Oh a political commentator.

2-The point of this article is.......?

3-And goodness forbid we and our children actually see and enjoy our heritage wildlife.

4-Sorry Who are you......?

5-Oh well if a random farmer who 'you know' 'says its true,' then it must be true.

6-Bet my bottom dollar that your 90% of the Britain population would rather see a badger than meet you.

7-..and who r ya again?

posted 300 days ago Judi Hewitt:

People on this site need to understand that soya is used in animal feed. In south America more and more land is being used to grow grain and soya beans to feed animals. The rubbish listed on this site by those with a vested interest in animal farming are not only making people ill (meat killed my dad at a fairly young age), but they're also partly responsible for the worlds hunger problem. 

It seems to me that those who support animal farmers are not thinking about the suffering to farm animals. Sorry, but it's true! Yesterday I saw two massive animal trucks heading for Ruthin Market - the sight of these huge empty trucks heading off to pick up their pitiful victims to then take off to the slaughter house made my stomach turn over. Infact I cried because the poor animals waiting to be loaded onto these evil trucks didn't ask to be born, any more than you or me!! What right do we have to make them suffer so?

It has never been easier to be vegan, yet there are people who still find it hard. Meat is not needed for iron intake, even by those who claim that it is the only source of iron that their bodies can absorb. Anyone who finds that they are lacking in iron on a vegan diet are obviously not eating enough variety. For anyone on here who is struggling on a vegan diet for whatever health reason, should contact VIVA (Vegetarian International Voice for animals) for advice on iron intake and health. They do have an expert on hand. 

There is no need for anyone to eat meat - it is the cause of so much suffering in people, and not least the animals, including badgers.

Farming animals should not be compared to animals living in the wild because many wild animals are not killed by predators. Farm animals have no escape - their fates are already decided by the people who make money from their flesh and those who purchase it because they like the taste. 

Farmers are handsomely compensated for the loss of cows to BOVINE TB and even more is paid out for other BOVINE diseases, so much so that a member of Clwyd Badger Group was appalled when she found a feeder placed directly over a badger sett. This same lady told me that only one in seven badgers were ever found to have TB.

I have never met a farmer yet that fully understands wildlife. In fact one ninety year farmers wife that I was speaking with didn't even know what a buzzard was when I pointed it out to her!!! She even toid me how many years ago one neighbouring farmer used to hang his old sheep dogs over a bridge and then drop them in the river below, when they were no more use to him. When I looked shocked, she said, "Oh that's country ways".

She even said that many unwanted kittens were often thrown into slurry pits. Her own husband would take their elderly sheep dogs to the local game keeper to be shot. One other farmer who just happened to e member of a fox hunt threatened my husband with an iron bar when we compained about blood dripping off the backsides of some tiny lambs that were trying to keep up with their mums - all this happened when he and his son were herding them along a country lane to a field about a mile away. One TINY lamb was thrown into the air by one of the dogs. This same farmer then removed these animals from this other field before the police arrived. He'd got his mate (another farmer) to help him load them up on a trailer and take them away so that the RSPCA could not see what he'd done to those babies. These farmers then told my husband to get me home and give me one!!! Nice people!!

And you wonder why I hate animal farmers so much? I could write a book about the cruelties I've witnessed!!

posted 300 days ago Alison Cooper:

I often wonder about stuff and right now im wondering why real people are being excluded from the real debate and fightback. Brians admin team have to remember that you are reaching out to a small minority of fantastic people. There are many more fantastic people though eager and wanting to get involved without all the diverce chat. We are against Badger culling and Fox hunting as well. Open up your network and make this happen, you have more to gain than lose x

posted 300 days ago Dom:

Food for thought....and remember this is Africa, a 3rd world country, where they face Lionss.

We are europe one of the most technically advanced and richest continents and we face badgers.

http://www.hsi.org/news/news/2011/06/building_bomas_protect_lions_063011.html

posted 300 days ago Dom:

Hi all, Betina thats a good link. I will spread the word.Although it feels like banging one's head against a wall sometimes.

Seems most people are happy to wander into their own oblivion as long as they can watch X-factor or some off brain numbing sh!te

Thnaks Newt-I respect you reasons for leaving, take care, don't think you have wated your rime as other issues have been discussed-and for some of it we are on the same side.

I will shout 'what do I do now?' when my field becomes a mass of cow parsley or something :-)

Take care fella! Don't be a stranger!

posted 300 days ago Jasmine:

A quick message, I've been so preoccupied with life in general but do take the time to support new campaigns for badgers... I've not researched this in detail, are the badger vaccines truly failing, Newt? I'd like to look into the facts if there are links to support this. I can't help but suspect that cutting back the vaccination plan and slowly and sporadically testing it on different badger setts may actually be allowing the bacteria to evolve. Mother nature is clever, and IMO the only way a good vaccine will eradicate TB in our lifetime is if it is used widespread and quickly... before the mycobacterium bovis can evolve beyond the point of the badgers' antibody recognition.

posted 300 days ago penny morgan:

Having looked at the mentality of the dog fighting set which, venn diagram-like, overlaps with hnuting set and farming set, it seems clear that once badger culling starts, it permits a certain mind-set to develop whereby all badgers are labelled vermin. Once that becomes pervasive, then other cruelties follow. A rise in badger-baiting seems inevitable. If interested,check out 'The Devil's Dogs' on amazon

posted 301 days ago Raindance:

 Back again - lunch break now.

Here is a piece worth listening to about badger cull from BBC News Today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi​/today/newsid_9544000/9544096.​stm

posted 301 days ago Raindance:

Betina, will do.  And will message you through facebook about fundraising. 

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thank you Raindance and YES please do spread it everywhere, we desperately need the attention.

We export so much more than we eat - and the majority of the people in DK eat LOTS of meat. They have to have meat several times a day all day a year and so they have to buy the cheepest available. They simply close their eyes to the realities. It's very hard being vegetarian or vegan here there're not much alternatives and it's very frustrating when you know the products exsist. You have to go in special shops or if you do find something you have to feel very lucky to find a pack of falafels (just realised the word is not in my online dictionary!) However there's a growing interest in veggie products so I think the time is right for telling people what's going on. Thank you for helping.

So as you can see this film is crucial to change thing for the better for the farm animals in Denmark.

posted 301 days ago Raindance:

Well said, Betina.  Newt, we are not against farmers.  Those of us who take time to study the materials and evidence available are well aware that farmers have a difficult time with bTB.  There are many farmers who oppose a badger cull.  The simple fact is that we want the same things; we just have different views on how it can be achieved.  

Betina, I have just watched that trailer for A Lovely Country.  It's very good indeed, and Steven's music is a perfect foil for it.  The bar-coded pig is a nicely shocking image.  I had no idea that so many of your farmed animals were kept indoors - how simply dreadful.  It would be so good if you managed to complete that film and get it out and about.  I hope that people here will donate, and I'm sure you will spread it about on facebook.  Is it ok for us to link to it on our pages? 

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

CIWF "How we can feed the world without trashing it?"

http://www.ciwf.org.uk/includes/documents/cm_docs/2009/e/eating_the_planet_press_briefing_nov_2009.pdf

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, you did not waste your time and neither did we, despite our differences it's been cool having you around. - the thing is, a compromise is difficult on neutral ground, before the final decision. However, farmers are now going to raise weapons and point them at what we're trying to save on here so that makes it impossible making a compromise.

If farmers resisted to kill, the culls couldn't go ahead - so it's in the hand of your kinds now. You do have the power to say NO and as soon as you lower the rifles and releasing the bullets we can start making compromises again.

I really wish it hadn't come to this. You take care too.

By the way. Take a look at my new thread: MAD A/S - A lovely country. It's about a YT teaser I made for an upcoming documentary about agriculture in Denmark. And Steven's in on it as well! He kindly lent me a music track he made. Thanks Steven - you're a darling!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUerLHJDukM

See thread for more info.

posted 301 days ago Newt:

Dom,

I shall look out for you, if I can help you in any way with your dream, I will...

take care

Newt

posted 301 days ago Newt:

Okay folks, I understand, I have wasted my time here, it's a real shame, for a while there I thought that some of you were listening.

Micobacterium bovis infects all mammals.

The vaccine we have is failing.

There is no alternative vaccine in sight.

The treatments in humans are failing.

Regardless of what you eat, contact with other humans in confined spaces (like trains) that have TB could lead to you getting it. It is a miserable disease to suffer from, even when you are being cured - more and more people will die of it as the treatments fail.

It is endemic in parts of the UK and there are no easy answers to removing the problems especially in super excreters such as infected badgers.

Someone, somewhere is going to have to control the disease in the wild. But a failing vaccine will fail much quicker if used on sick badgers.

There are problems with dairy farming, but putting your neurosis onto cattle is not the solution there either. Thankfully, cattle are a lot more stable than people.

Before I lose my sanity, I shall return to the calm and peace of my cattle and leave you all to enjoy your lives.

I have enjoyed talking to some of you. Good luck and best wishes for the future.

Take care,

Newt

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Well Dom, It's twice the prize in Dk and trible if it's organic, says something about our meat and dairy pompous country..... 

posted 301 days ago Dom:

Hi Betina-yes under a pound and not sure if it is organic, probably not

posted 301 days ago Raindance:

Maaaaaaple syrup ... yum.  Love it in porridge, on icecream, and pancakes.  I have never tried it in smoothies.  

Ali,  thank you for that message about 38 Degrees and for putting it on my wall, too. 

A little thread drift, while we're waiting for things to happen.  There are two nice interviews on Brian's main site - one with him and the other with Anita Dobson.  The latter interview particularly interested me as it mentions that she will play the part of Queen Jocasta in Sophocles's Oedipus in Edinburgh.  It's a play I know very well, having studied it many moons ago.  It's quite fabulous to think that this Tragedy was first performed in 429 BC, and that a play so old is still being presented to audiences.  And, of course, there is Brian's interview to listen to about 3D photography and animals.  Such lovely treats; what's not to like?

A special someone gave me AVLF last year - the owl-thing is great fun.  The same someone has promised me a 3d camera as an un-birthday present.  I like those sorts of someones.  

Steven, I don't like flavoured or sweetened soya - unsweetened organic is more my thing - but I will take a look at M&S.  Thank you for that.

posted 301 days ago StevenAult:

Marks and spencers have a fantastic vanilla flavoured soya milk. It's in an orange box but it is a little more expensive. I LOVE SOYA MILK! Make sure it's a product of the EU or people will say we're dstroying the Amazon rainforest. Murdering thousands of badgers just for a glass of milk? Up yours! Ditch the dairy! 

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Ok, now I'm going to sound very ignorence here but Dom do you pay less a pound for 1 litre of soya milk? Is it organic?

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Hey Dom, it's great in a smoothie, have you tried that? With maple syrup, vanilla, frosen strawberries and fresh orange juice.

posted 301 days ago Dom:

Bought Soya Milk today, sweetened , its 64p a litre at asda. 

Not much difference really is there?

posted 301 days ago Alison Cooper:

The 38 Degrees petition will be live and available tomorrow Raindance, they are usually very good at getting big numbers :)

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Oh, and if you do buy for ex. danish dairy then buy organic for god sake! ... much better. It's not good enough but still the best alternative than conventionel danish dairy. Organic danish cows have more space, soft lair and they will have access to exercise and grass from april to september.

posted 301 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Boycutt ALL english dairy products! It's our strongest weapon so spread the word that badgers are now going to get shot.... by farmers!!!!

posted 301 days ago Raindance:

The campaign website 38 Degrees has a campaign suggestion list, and the proposed badger cull is on the list.  Here is the link:

http://38degrees.uservoice.com/forums/78585-campaign-suggestions/suggestions/2052107-save-our-badgers-?utm_campaign=ShortUrls&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=38degrees.uservoice.com

posted 302 days ago Newt:

Sorry Judi, perhaps you didn't, but you do make lots of unfair judgements and presumptions about me, don't you?

I too am very sad, for whatever reason, it is clear that there was a lack of communication here or perhaps the farmer was just too late.

Whatever happened - I have no doubt that a cow died unnecssarily here. And it would have been quite an unpleasant way to go too and so easily treated.

What a shame!

posted 302 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I did not lose my temper - please don't presume so!! This farmer already knew who I was because I've had so much publicity re campaigning against animal cruelty in North Wales. He was the one who lost it with me for just informing him about the poor cow. I was more concerned for the animal than with how he felt about me! I never lose my rag when I'm campaigning - I leave that to the hunters/farmers, ect... I may come across in letters/reports as strong, but never on the streets or when faced with cruelty as my colleagues would testify. I just feel so very sad.

posted 302 days ago Newt:

Please, Please, Please, I most humbly beg you all, regardless of your feelings for me or your feelings about farming; if you come across a cow that is clearly in distress, lying down, with her eyes rolling, calmly tell the farmer.

For the sake of the cow.

This is not a time to be judgemental or to lose your temper or shout abuse. You don't have time for that, the cow is dieing!

Other symptoms include, dilated pupils, profound shaking, extreme salivation or drooling, twitching muscles, kicking at the ground and moaning. If she has been like that for long the ground will be scraped clean and she may have rubbed her skin off her legs or head and here their may be an odema.

Soon the cow will pass into a coma. Even then however an injection can bring it around almost miraculously.  This condition is very easily treated and ALL farmers should know how or what to do, and have the right medicine, a vet certainly would!

If you take this opportunity to "have a go" at the farmer, he may walk away. That will kill the cow as affectively as you shooting her in the head. And then no you will not see it again!

And never, ever, under any circumstances walk a dog through a field of newly calved cows! If they attack, let your dog run lose, it will run away and survive, if you get between a cow and your dog you will be dead in seconds! And NEVER run away, back away slowly and calmly! 

Cows don't understand anything about public footpaths even if you think that you have every right to be there!

Also if you see a sheep on its back, roll it back onto its feet! Daft I know, but they often can't get themselves up again, especially if they are fat. They can't belch and gasses in their stomach will blow them up until they can't breath. Turn them onto their feet and they may stagger and fall over again, lift them up again as often as you need to and they will walk away and be fine. Shake themselves, pee, fart and live!

posted 302 days ago Raindance:

Welcome, Stephanie. You will find a lot of people here who share your concerns. I'm sure you are having a good look round this site as well as the "what's new" section on Brian's main site.

You seem to have found your way to the petition. Keep an eye on the League Against Cruel Sports website, www.league.org.uk, and the Badger Trust website,www.badger.org.uk, as well as the corresponding facebook pages. Many, if not most of us, are on facebook and people are very efficient in posting news of latest campaigns.

Time to sleep now.  Good night. 

posted 302 days ago Stephanie Prior:

Said I'm new to the site. Now I've found today's comments and Lisa's link to the petition (which I had signed already but I've had a drink since then!) so I can go to bed knowing I'm not the only one feeling churned up about this. Betina's dairy boycott is a good idea if it's publicised and built for right. There must be loads of lapsed vegans like me and vegetarians prepared to help start it but then it's got to be taken out further to bring the wider public on board. But maybe cute pictures of badgers are exactly the image to get people questioning dairy farming and the meat industry in general?

posted 302 days ago Stephanie Prior:

English Badgers

Sorry, I'm new to this site, having found it today in my incensed rush to find protest responses to today's news that the coalition is granting permission to English farmers to trap and shoot badgers. I can't bear the idea this issue is back again. I can't live in a country that can consider taking an entire native wild species to the brink of extinction for no rational reason at all.

Perhaps I got a bit complacent after recent victories like the circus animals and the Welsh badger proposals being quashed but it seems to have taken us all by surprise. I can't find a petition or even an article in response anywhere yet. Give me something to sign and I'll sign it. If this goes ahead I'll never drink a drop of milk or any dairy product again!

posted 302 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

"Then came man to savage in the night

To run like thieves and to kill like knives

To take away the power from the magic hand

To bring about the ruin to the promised land"

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Mark that is in reference to land for a meadow and an orchard. How would this impact wildlife, if anything it would be worked in a way to become a haven for wildlife. Including planting decidouos trees with various habitats , like a small pool for variuos species

Also it might be useful for rescued wildlife rehabilitation, such as hedgehogs. The sheep I enquired about would be used for grazing if it were required.

I just need to find the right land and some cash 

I can't stop a badger cull,I can do what I can by donating,  but I can help the variuos other British Wildlife which is also in desperate need of help, like the Wildcat which faces extinction.

I have stated time over I am anti culling Mark, perhaps have a nose at some of the threads I have posted to see what a state the human race is in.

All The best

Dom

posted 302 days ago mark williams:

Raindance nice to have you back,

Yes i also watched the article on the BBC news this morning very upsetting.

Channel four aired an article this evening, You will find it here

http://www.channel4.com/news/badger-cull-to-beat-bovine-tb

Dom,

A question for you, Do you remember someone telling you this?

Dom, don't waste your life dreaming about what you could do if you won the lottery - just get out there and do it!

Yes Dom today these words echoed in my mind as i read what getting out there and doing it really means and the implications it has on our wildlife.

posted 302 days ago Dom:

May I suggest playing a bit of 'Master Of Puppets' by Metallica Brian to let 'it all out' as they say.

Happy Birthday! 

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Harking further down to the religion comments you should all check out St.Francis Of Assisi, one of the first conservationists and patron saint to animals and the environment.

posted 302 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

So b-e-a-utiful Linda, made me smile:) I can't match it so I'll settle for a DITTO!

I wish wish wish I could ease the pain for all of us.. this unbelievably stupid decision made today kind of drag us down. But tomorrow will come and then we start fighting back, we can't let this hold us down too long.  

YOU ROCK ON BRI, DON'T LET THIS TEAR YOU APART ON YOUR DAY -  WE ARE IN THIS TOGETHER AND WE WILL EVENTUALLY MAKE THEM PUT OUT THE FIRE. STAY STRONG! Love B

posted 302 days ago Linda Adams:

If all would pardon me this minor off-topic poetic excursion today, July 19, 2011:

:-)

Happy Birthday Brian May!
We hope that joy will fill your day!  

Wehear you're turning 64...
Hm, your friend Sir Paul did that before;
Did you think at twenty-six, You'd still be touring, saving badgers birds and foxes, studying biology astronomy and politics?

...and still not own every TR Williams stereo card?
Oh, life is hard! But-- may we say--

Happy Birthday Brian May
Keep staring at the moon all day!

Kiss Anita and the kids
Play us all some riffs and licks
Have a day that's really great, Sing a bit with Kerry Ellis, have a Guinness with your fellas, & don't forget your vegan birthday cake!

Happy Birthday Brian May!
We hope that joy will fill your day!

by Linda Adams, 2011

:) Enjoy your day, dear Dr. Brian!! Ta! xxooxxx

posted 302 days ago Dom:

http://www.wolvesandhumans.org/index.htm

posted 302 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Happy birthday, Brian! Wish it was better badger news for you.

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Message to Brian May and all.

If the cull does happen we must DEMAND to test every badger shot, to find out how many had btb.If the figures are as high as the NFU and DEFRA suggest and as they say cost is no option I can not see why they would oppose testing shot badgers.

posted 302 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Stop the cull! Sign here: http://www.league.org.uk/badgerpetition

posted 302 days ago Brettley:

It's no surprise that this animal hating Cameron government choose to announce the badger cull on the day of the Murdoch Phone Hacking hearing. Obviously they were hoping it would be spoke screened by the enquiry. Very cunning! This from a government which used threats to an MP to try to stop a ban on performing circus animals. We will not forget this Cameron. This is the most animal hating government in the last 100 years and I hope animal lovers remember that when they next vote.

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Betina the badger trust has apparently £100,000 in he war chest i read somewhere so....?

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Information about a climate sceptic new wiki page.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2011/jul/19/climate-change-wiki-heartland-institute

Have a read of this article, it is very enlightening and shows how much power is against trying to help the home we live on. Well one day you will be held to questioning and how will you answer your children when they ask

'What did you do about it?'

posted 302 days ago Chris Oxinou (Chrissie):

Happy Birthday Dr. Brian May, lot's of love from Jobby and me xxxxxxxxxx

posted 302 days ago Chris Oxinou (Chrissie):

This is so barbaric. This goverment has no idea. How can they go ahead with a badger cull when the scientific evidence does not support it. It makes my blood boil !!!!!!!!

posted 302 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I just heard the dreadful news: "the Government has today announced plans for a badger cull trial in England" I'm so dissapointed. How can well educated people come to such a meaningless and dangerous decision? I'm so sad for the badgers and I'm so sad for those farmers that blindly believe this will help them. This is not the way to do it in a modern society. 

LEAGUE AGAINST CRUEL SPORTS PETITION - Be one of the million against the cull.

http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=122&ea.campaign.id=10422

Can Badgers Trust take the case to High Court somehow? They have such strong evidence against culling. Even if they loose, the game would not be over - then comes EU Court! Of course these things cost and I don't know if they can have a free legal aid.

posted 302 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, the VIVA link is interesting. Imagine a serious dairy boycutt? That would put a solid stop for any cull, I'm sure.

I'm wondering about something and I'm hoping one of you can help me. When was the last badger cull in Wales? Where and how many?

posted 302 days ago Raindance:

People on facebook are being encouraged to change profile pictures to the LACS badger picture.  Take a look at LACS facebook page for their badger picture:

http://www.facebook.com/LeagueAgainstCruelSports

posted 302 days ago Marian:

As a newbie to this site I have made a promise to myself to 'become informed' on the whole culling badger debate.  The snippet of news on the BBC today certainly showed a very plausible farmer stating that he did not want to have to cull badgers but that it was necessary.  It is one of those issues where  we tend to take 'others word for it' without looking any further into the pros and cons, so I am going to do some serious reading on the subject.

My initial thoughts when viewing the BBC news report was 'Well the cows have been bred to provide food and drink so will inevitably die doing so.  What have the badgers done to deserve being culled?  I feel that our wild life is very precious to us and have always had the view that people who can be cruel to animals are best avoided. 

I note that others are saying 'Happy Birthday' to Brian; may I also add my best wishes, he shares a birth date with my mother who would have been 84 today and she was also a very gentle caring person.

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Good article Veronica I will repost the link. 

http://zerocarbonista.com/top-ten-food-choice-myths-busted/

posted 302 days ago Dom:

Read this over at VIVA folks 

http://www.viva.org.uk/mediareleases/display.php?articlepid=255

posted 302 days ago George:

Did anyone watch the announcement of pilot badger culling by Caroline Spelman on BBC Parliament in the House of Commons today? It was chilling to see how many deluded people agreed with it, but also comforting that those on the side of the real science (and of course ethics) spoke up as well.

The decision to start culling comes in light of pro-culling evidence that seems to have come out of nowhere at the perfect time, making this new pilot culling proposal suddenly 'scientific' and 'evidence based'. When questioned on the masses of evidence against culling and whether she has considered that also, she dismissed it.

The most horrifying thing was to hear Spelman (and other heartless, pompus 'people') say 'its out of our love for nature and badgers that a cull is neccessary' and how much they love and adore nature and badgers - I nearly choked on what I was eating.

On a somewhat side note it was also interesting, and frustrating, to see that 100% pro culling MPs were Conservative, and 100% against culling were Labour. Just a note for thought.

posted 302 days ago Raindance:

That's very interesting news, Lisa.  He's a vet and an expert in infectious diseases.  If he can command the respect of everyone involved, then that will be a good step forward. 

posted 302 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Prof. Chris Gaskell is going to lead the review: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-14192016

posted 303 days ago Raindance:

Steven,

"Do unto others ..." when discussing Man's relationship with animals I would suggest reading Genesis instead of Matthew. In this "book of beginnings", you will see that God is pleased with His creation - it is perfect in every way. Man is given dominion over all the Earth and animals, but this "dominion" was never intended to be a tyrany. On the contrary, it was intended to be "stewardship". The original design for the Earth was for both Man and all creatures to populate the Earth (to be fruitful and multiply) so Man has a duty to work towards God's ideal and to exercise stewardship in a way that causes the least pain and suffering for animals.

You can then ask whether the golfer who killed the fox was exercising "stewardship". The simple answer is no. A more detailed answer is that he lost his temper, was violent and took the life of a defenceless animal without any cause, and set a bad example to others. The little fox offered no danger to the man, did not threaten him and did not pose a health hazard. I am not the man's judge, but it does not mean that I don't have the right to say that what he did was wrong in every way. His actions were utterly callous, unreasonable, and wicked. Was he adequately punished? I would have to defer to the judge who sentenced him. Sentencing guidelines can seem something of a dark art.

When you go on to read further in Genesis, you will see that Man displeased God by his actions. God regretted that He created the Earth and punished the world with the Great Flood. If you read the text carefully, you will see that Man was given plants and the fruits of trees to eat before the Flood, and only after the Flood does he begin to eat meat.

Scriptures may be interpreted in all sorts of ways and one may dismiss scripture as a fairy-story or just an attempt by the ancients to "explain" the world about them. However, the above summary of Genesis is one that is worth thinking about. I would hasten to add that the reference to the original intention for Man to be vegetarian and eating meat after the Flood is not my original thought; it is something that a friend of mine, who happens to be a theologian, pointed out to me some years ago.

Mark, I'm so pleased you found the piece about badgers on the radio.  I will listen to it again.  There was another piece today on breakfast television (only caught the end of that) and I will look that up later if it is available.  Sadly, with all this News Corp "stuff" in train today, it is a subject that doesn't seem to be high on many people's agendas.  A cessation of the proposed badger cull would have made the best birthday gift for someone we admire. 

posted 303 days ago Raindance:

Happy Birthday, Brian.  We hope that you have a splendid Birthday, surrounded by those who are most special to you, and we wish you many happy returns of the day. 

posted 303 days ago Veronika @ VVF:

Hi Steven, I agree, we do need vitamin B12 in our diet but the page doesn't downplay it - it talks about supplements and enriched foods that contain B12 synthetised by bacteria and states that B12 supplementation is recommended not only for vegetarians. To explain that - the body's ability to absorb B12 (especially from animal-derived foods) declines with age so as we get older we need to take a B12 supplement or eat enriched foods regardless of being veggie or a meat-eater. The page talks about B12 from plant-based food but that means enriched foods because they contain the more natural form of B12 for humans to absorb (ie bacteria synthetised, not B12 from animal sources). There's also a link to a fact sheet that talks about it in more detail...

posted 303 days ago StevenAult:

I'm with you all the way Judi on that. Looks like it could be a badger cull in Gloucestershire and Devon. Lampers rejoice, your sick passtime has received more credibility. It's the 21st Century and we're 'solving' problems by allowing the most depraved peole in society to kill innocent badgers for sport. Another victory for civilisation. Interesting info on veggie myths. Not sure about the vitamin B12 info. We have evolved to require this essential vitamin and you can only get it 'naturally' from meat, dairy, and poultry products. It can of course be easily synthesised and added to any food product. As a veggie who's on his way to veganism, I think it's irresponsible to downplay the importance of vitamin B12. Not enough research has been done to prove it can be found in plants. 

posted 303 days ago Country_Gran:

‎~*♥*~ Happy Birthday Brian May!! ~*♥*~

posted 303 days ago Veronika @ VVF:

As we noticed some misguided views about veggie lifestyles expressed in the forum, I thought it might be the right time to bring this webpage put together by nutrition experts to your attention: http://zerocarbonista.com/top-ten-food-choice-myths-busted/ - there's not only a lot of science-based information but also links to further resources for the doubtful. 

posted 303 days ago Judi Hewitt:

Oh and sorry about missing the odd letter/word from my message below - some of us have very busy lives. Oh and NEWT, please don't insult my intelligence - I only wish I didn't know as much as I do about farm animal suffering. Perhaps those that cling to your every word without question should check out a few animal markets to see the fear in the eyes of animals separated from their young and sold off for slaughter. And with six out of seven slaughter houses showing terrible abuse to animals inside these animal Belson's, I don't how you can defend animal farming??? I lose a lot of sleep because of the scene's I've witnessed.

posted 303 days ago Judi Hewitt:

So NEWT, you say cows do not grieve for their calves - so what the hell was all that screaming/high pitched bellowing I remember from a herd of cows the day after their calves were removed? And why did one cow with a timy calf show aggression towards our dog when we passing the field?  And why did we see one cow trying to raise the head of another pregnant cow who was lying on the ground, her head was rolling from side to side in what could only be described as distress? The tenderness shown by this cow to her friend shocked my husband and me.

The farmer who knew me but didn't like my views told to me to mind my own business when I went to inform him about one of his cows being in distress.

You might be able those on this site NEWT, but you don't kid me!!

There was no sign of NUMBER 56 when we went back the very next day.

I'm sorry, but I really do not like animal farmers - and MOST people who eat animals only do so because they like the taste. So it seems a hell of a lot of people prefer to ignore the suffering to cattle and other farm animals just for a few mouthfuls of dead flesh.

NEWT your saying that cows do no miss their calves is utter bollocks!!!

posted 303 days ago Judi Hewitt:

The golf club criticised for reinstating a member who clubbed a fox to death for 'stealing a chocolate biscuit' are lying to the press about caring and encouraging wildlife. I spoke to someone (on the phone) who works at the club and he was very aggressive towards me. Why do these people feel the need to lie all the time - it shows us clearly that corruption is alive and well!!I hope the demo's continue until the man who so callously took the life of that poor fox is drummed out!!

posted 303 days ago Dom:

Bashing a fox -disgusting-spread the word people!

posted 303 days ago StevenAult:

The punishements dished out to people who commit acts of barbaric cruelty towards 'animals' are pathetic. That sicko who bludgeoned the fox should be sent for psychiatric assessment. He needs help. Do unto others as you would have done onto yourself. Raindance, help me out with that quote. Not sure it's right. 

posted 303 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

So Mark, I can see your links are not alive. Did you see my message on FB?

posted 303 days ago mark williams:

Thank you Raindance it was very informative here is the link so some of our other friends can hear the BBC Radio4 farming news.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b012kq2k

The news on Brianmay.com main web site was so upsetting. Could you believe someone could have bludgeoned a fox to death for stealing a dam biscuit. He needs a custodial sentence for his mindless act.

But here is a real disney moment. Watch this article that ran on ITV news this very evening, moments like this do not happen everyday.

http://www.itv.com/news/whale-thanks-rescuers70414/

posted 303 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

The heads are rolling now....

Wonder if this recent event could be beneficial to our cause - bringing about a more honest approach to the news and facts out there? We can certainly hope but there's a risk of other fools entering the stages.

Decision expected tomorrow afternoon.

http://www.farmersguardian.com/home/livestock/livestock-news/badger-cull-decision-set-for-tuesday/40362.article

BTW - GREAT noise from Roger as in Tayler.

Dear Mr Murdoch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pecFVzIfCNA&feature=feedlik#

posted 304 days ago Raindance:

Just catching up with all your posts after a week spent on the edge of the Universe with one of my Olds.  They have splendid gradients but not much in the way of internet access. So I went tramping all over the moors, visiting places I hadn't seen since I was a little Raindrop.    

Stout, Newt?  Oh please ... someone tried to make me drink that years ago when I was ill once - mixed with milk - to "help me get better" and a more unpleasant thing I have yet to taste.

Well, my train carriage is full of suits.  They've all chomped through plates of breakfast and mounds of toast and now they're all tapping on their little laptops and making loud, macho conversations on mobiles, especially Purple Shirt sitting across the aisle from me.  The one saving grace Purple Shirt has is that, in between the shouty conversations, he is broadcasting Queen songs to us, so I will not confiscate his iphone.  Yet. 

Did anyone listen to the early morning (farming, I think) programme on Radio Four at 5.45 am? Interesting piece about badgers, current vaccination programme, and development of further vaccinations.  

posted 304 days ago StevenAult:

If you discover an important petition which needs to be signed Lisa, best put it on here too. I sometimes miss the member threads. 

posted 304 days ago StevenAult:

Just seen another well balanced feature about tb on Countryfile! Lots of interviews with The Badger Trust, er...... Also a feature on dear farming, which to be honest is something I cannot abide. Of all the animals to be farmed, dear seem like the least appropriate to me. They sell the antlers for Oriental 'medicine'!! A verility potion! Which century are we living in?

posted 304 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Hi Newt! Thanks for the suggestion! It might turn me into an alcoholic, though! Just kidding...

There must be some form of a vaccine that is safe for humans to consume through beef, though. Do you have a link to show the actual success/failure rate of the oral vaccine, Newt?

posted 304 days ago Dom:

Terrible news about those people Steve.

I suppose Disney can raise awareness, I remeber watching the fox and the hound! But finding Nemo had the reverse effect on the fate of the clown fish. Im pretty sure the films message was...'Don't go buying fish caught in the wild'. So what does every one go and do...

Wall E-now that is a brilliant film with a good eco message.

That  Simples ad means some pet shops are now selling meerkats whihc of course turn out to be not very well adapted to living alone in house so you can guess how that little story turns out.

Sorry about the ocean links suppose to go into another thread, but actually read them if you will as they affect every one of us around the world. Its scary stuff and the reason I quit fish for me and the cat last year (ish? I think).

posted 304 days ago Dom:

http://sanfrancisco.ibtimes.com/articles/167103/20110621/mass-extinction-by-2050-ocean-and-marine-life-in-danger-photos.htm

posted 304 days ago Dom:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/21/us-oceans-idUSTRE75K1IY20110621

posted 305 days ago Newt:

That's terrible! I feel so sorry for them and their families.

Thank you for telling me.

posted 305 days ago StevenAult:

Some farmers have drowned in a slurry pit Newt. Just horrific.  

posted 305 days ago Newt:

Steve

The bees and elephants thing, I thought we had already discussed this here, but on looking back I can't find it, so it must have been with someone else on another bTB forum. In that case it was suggested that bees could be used to keep badgers and cattle apart.

Sadly this is not the case - yes here we go again, I've kept bees for 18 years, no longer do, but do have experience of bees and badgers (sorry I'm a broken record aren't I?).

Okay, please be tollerant of my faults, but...the animal psycology is this...the theory goes that if you eat grass and vegetation (elephant) and had a 4' nose, just about the last thing that you would want would be a bee sting up your nostril. Furthermore, while the same species of bee, the African bee, being used here is a more aggressive strain than the European bee. Ever heard of the "Killer Bees" in America? Well this is no myth, it is a real strain of bee that is a hybrid of African and South American (European) bees that is super aggressive. Anyway that's bees and elephants.

Meles meles the badger, eats Bombus ominbus the common bumble bee. The bumble bee makes nests in old mouse nests on or near the ground and the badger digs these up and eats them, specifically hunting by smell and sound. It is not just the honey (which in this case is marginal) but mainly the soft grubs that brock is after - invertebrates remember?

So unfortunately badgers are attracted to bee hives.

Sorry to be negative but I think, for all the reasons that you give Obi Wan, bees are very good for keeping elephants from crops, sadly and I know you didn't suggest this, but they would not work between cattle and badgers.

Did you know that elephants can get foot and mouth too? Apparently it is really horrible in elephants as the inside layer of their trunks peels off like a cows skin on it's tongue, horrible disease!

Take care,

Newt

posted 305 days ago Newt:

Lisa - Stout!

I don't know why I didn't think of it before, but stout is very high in soluble iron.

My Great Grandmother lived to be 103, which in those days it was quite rare, she had 8 children and raised 6 of them, 2 passed away as infants (TB I believe) anyway, she was a typical working class Victorian Lady, except that she ate very little meat and lived through the Boar war, and two World Wars and lived a very long and productive life. I remember as a small child, her being interviewed for the local paper and asked what she put her long life down to and she said that she had a glass of stout everyday before bed for the past 60 years.

As I say, stout is very high in soluble iron, maybe there is a conection and it wouldn't hurt would it? But don't over do it, just one glass a day, or you'll turn into an alcoholic old newt!

Anyway, I hope it helps!

Newt

posted 305 days ago Newt:

Morning all,

No sorry Steve it was nothing like that, just a family crisis with my mother, unrelated to farming, the situation is stablising I think, not a health problem, well it is related but... anyway it's irrelevant here so I shall leave it if you don't mind. Don't know anything about an accident in Essex, I hope no one was badly hurt?

Mark - actually I completely understand the Disney comment, after all animal psycology does apear a bit "magical" to outsiders. If you have spent your life in the forces and manufacturing then it would seem completely unbelievable of course it does.

I don't watch a lot of TV to be honest, oh I enjoy a good film, but all these soaps, sports and reality TV leave me cold. However if I want a really good laugh, my favourite type of programme is something like "The Dog Whisperer" or "It's me or the Dog" or occaisionally "Dog Borstal". I don't think that I could watch more than one at a time though without rupturing myself with laughter! I love it, along comes this urban woman with her make up, high heels and wood affect laminate floors and she says something like, "Oh heeeee's Mummies little baby....." and I'm gone! You just know what is coming next! And the more she babbles on about her ittle wittle child substitue, you just know the worse the dog will be!

It doesn't matter what the breed is, or how big it is or how much she loves it, it will be wild and out of control and aggressive and down right dangerous, and do you know why? Because she is treating it as a human being, installing her own mental problems onto an animal. Now that is pure Disney!

Dogs are not humans, they are dogs.

Caesar Milan seems to work true magic, taking a dog that is dangerous and wild and turning it in only a matter of hours into a completely different creature. The Horse whisperer does it with horses, Temple Grandin uses similar tachniques to control and move cattle. It's all about the science (And it is a science, it is not Disney or black magic) of watching animals and there natural behaviour and resisting the temptation to "humanise" them.

We all do it; in our house we have four dogs, one each in human terms. I have a dog, my wife has a dog, my son and daughter each have dogs and the dogs sense that they have a special owner to whom they are especially loyal, so my son's dog doesn't work well for my daughter and vice versa. However in dog terms they see us as one pack, and me as the dominant pack leader, so when I set off to gather sheep, they get all excited and forget all other games and play and focus in on me.  I have never beaten any of them, but they know that they have to obey me and fortunately, most of the time, they all respond exactly to my commands - well hopefully!

But there is no magic to this, actually like all magic tricks it is very simple, when you know how it is done, but first you have to understand dog psycology and realise that actually dogs are at their happiest when their world is ordered and structured and there is a strong, calm and assertive pack leader. Exercise, discipline and affection - in that order. An unbalanced dog is one that affection and nothing else. Oh you can be affectionate, but only after they have worked hard and know who is boss. Then you have the most wonderful, loyal and affectionate dog.

Otherwise taking a sheep dog into a field of sheep is a bit like taking a loaded gun.

Anyway there you go, believe it or not it's up to you, you are intelligent and caring people, which would you prefer, animals being treated as comodities or animals being treated as sentient beings and their needs and behaviours being catered for?

You are not going to stop livestock farming, so why not join us in trying to make it more comfortable for the animals in it?

That's where I come from, that's what I do.

Take care,

Newt

posted 305 days ago StevenAult:

Just heard of a farming accident in Essex. That must be the bad news right Newt? Sounds dreadful.  

posted 305 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Ha ha Dom, Mark asked me the same, here's what you do, hope it's understandable:

You make it a live link by using the Enter key. (Great thing, right Dom?) After you paste a link the blinking cursor has to be at the end of the line/address at right - then push Enter and the link will change colour.

posted 305 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

One other sad thing is, if a large company with huge amounts of factory milk, buys up milk from small farmers how can we tell the difference. I don't know if they do this, but let's say they give a very good prize a small farmer couldn't effort rejecting, then this good milk is labelled with the big company's logo which many assaociates with cruelty to animals.... isn't that a shame? And a big dissapointment and frustration to the small caring farmers, I would think. Anyone know if this is being done? 

Dom, Alice in wonderland and Narnia - a mix. Don't ask me why, perhaps to make it suitable to all ages and like a fairy tale. We don't have raccoons but found a few who they think comes from captivty. Raccoons live south of our borders, one day they might settle down here - if we behave nicely:)

posted 305 days ago Dom:

Did 'nt know raccoons were native to Denmark :-)

What I don't like about these ads is using cute animals to sell a completely irrelevant product. Raccoons are very sweet I have held a baby raccoon and a skunk.

posted 305 days ago Dom:

Betina how do you do those clickable links? come on share the goodness :-)

posted 305 days ago Dom:

The question I would put to you Mark is how did you change the workflow?

posted 305 days ago Dom:

Wow Betina they are surreal, whats the beaver got to do with anything and why does she pop out of a tree, very strange.

posted 305 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

On the subject of disney. It's actually quite true, take a look at these danish commercials and tell me if this doesn't look like disney. The words italic typed is the words they use.

Does it really bring you closer to nature? Natural ingredients. Natural pleasure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGFkfEFyG-g&feature=related

Get closer to nature. Give every meal a natural good taste.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bHM1l0esBk&feature=related

Good taste with only 8% fat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hki4hydZ5ws&NR=1

Get closer to nature. Natural ingredients gives the unique taste.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua28P_wHmQ0&feature=related

Get closer to nature. Fresh danish milk from cows on grass.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYs3W6REGSg&NR=1

New fresh milk from cows on grass which is good in a natural way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8VpM2LFfdM&feature=related

The taste you know with lesser fat.

http://www.youtube.com/user/arlavideos#p/u/43/Z0MEKeoZJbE

I can find more if you like...... This is ALL ONE BIG FAT LIE!

Steven, very interesting news!

posted 305 days ago StevenAult:

Just read some great news which shows that many conflicts can be resolved with research and ingenuity. They've developed a way of protecting crops from stampeding elephants in Africa. They surround the field with bee hives. Elephants are apparently afraid of bees, and the farmers make money from the honey too. This sounds great to me. I don't think it's cruel use bees in this way. These countries are poor and they really need to protect their crops. Is the bad news irreversible Newt?

posted 305 days ago mark williams:

Thank you Dom interesting,

I make no apologies for the disney remark, i will leave it there.

Let me tell you something and take from it what you like. A few years ago I had a job and one of tasks was to go into different manufacturing departments and figure out how to cut costs. Not an easy job at all believe me. Obstacles all the way, especially from the old boys they gave me a hard time. Yes they knew everything about their job they had done it for many years and became very skilled. I on the other hand did not have the skills, i could not do the task at the same speed and show the same amount of dexterity.

However i new the job had to change, i knew if the job did not change the company would fall into financial difficulties and would be forced to close. Why then, everyone was doing a good job, doing it to the best of their abilities no slacking and everyone had all the right intentions. There was one simple reason and that reason was the world of manufacturing had changed we could not stay competitive doing things the way we had always done them in the past.

Now our world is changing to Dom, Road and transport growth, populations growth, towns and city growth. Yes we are getting bigger and the world is getting smaller. New disease to challenge us, less land for animals to stay safe in and away from contact with humans and livestock. Soil depleting being kept fertile by artificial means. These are but some of the challenges facing man and their is no room for complacency, no room for anyone to say “i know what i’m doing no need for me to change”

If we are to go forward everyone needs to change their ways for the better. We have to have greater respect for the planet, the flora and fauna upon it and less selfishness from us. We cant go around making room for us or clearing up our mistakes by making other animals pay the price. We cant chuck poison on the land for a quick profit or for something to do with it, to many are already doing this and its having bad effects. We cant live here alone and who would want too. But this is the bottom line if we carry on.

posted 305 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Okay guys it doens't have to be wine.... we could have healthy smoothies.

OK Newt, I'm sad to hear about the bad news.

posted 305 days ago Dom:

Hope it's nothing to bad Newt - Take Care mate.

Make mine a soft drink to, I'm afraid I'm tee total :-) Shandy is my vice

posted 305 days ago Newt:

Re all these since my last post. Yes I agree to all that is said here, especially you Mark, you are quite right. Your humanity is a credit to you, it really is.

I agree with Betina too!

I say, let's all go around to Dom's local pub and have a glass of something together, mine had better be a soft drink though as I'm on the wagon!

I'd like to end with a joke, but unfortunately I have just had some bad news and I'm no mood to laugh, but you lot carry on with out me for the time being.

Take care,

Newt

posted 305 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Perhaps it popped up while you tried avoiding pushing the Enter key and instead you accidentally fidgeted in the other side of the keyboard. Stuff happens - don't worry.

posted 305 days ago Dom:

Do you think the mods would be irritated?

I would suggest that the whole badger debate is so interconnected with so many other issues, all of which are worth exploring. And I don't think humour should be left to pasture, interlaced with fact it can be a very effective non aggressive tool in learning. I have used it  alot in the past when showing off animals and raising awareness. Trust me a bored audience will learn nothing and to show you know other things unconnected can really raise your estimation among different walks of life and hence they are more likely to listen to your points, if say you have commented on a something they are into, as simple as commenting on a band t-shirt they are wearing.

!

posted 305 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

We just have to put our faith in a vaccine, we have to believe the scientists have what it takes to make it. Both for the cattle and the badgers. Mean while securing property, farms and fields is also a key priority. Electric fencing and other repellents that works, be inventive and perhaps you find a solutions that seems to work and is cheap. In fact I think, not doing anyting is probably the worst. The cost - yes the cost I know, what are we going to do?

Perhaps we should do what Lisa suggested, something with a petition to help out smal farmers (sorry Lisa I can't rembember what it was exactly). We could make a letter to the government or to EU and make them cough up the money, make them pay for any cost of securing farm property. After all this is everybody's problem. I can't write such a world wide petition in english - I'm not that good. However I'll gladly contribute to contents of the text.

Another thing to be taken serious is all the controls they have to make around cattle - it's important not fighting against it how unpleasant and time consuming it might be. They say these things have had an important matter on a decrease in the btb numbers. I do understand why farmers dissociate themselves from anyone coming on their land aggressivly to kill badgers or noisy rude foxhunters trespassing and destroying everything on their path. This has GOT to end! I also know it must be downgrading to be sort of pushed aside when btb or the risk of btb hits a farm, when governmental vets takes over. I agree it's not the right approch since the farmer knows his animals the best and therefore should be much more a part of resolving the crisis that has reached his farm, his animals, his livelihood - no question there (right Philip, something like that?). I wish we had time to make them change the whole procedure but at the moment there's no time for that - in a brighter future when btb has droped drastically and is no longer smouldering fire to small farmers, then it's time for changing the procedure to a better and fairer system.

Dom, I really like your style, you sound sweet - I wish we could all meet and have a party;) we could talk about other things than all the sad - music and laughter and a bit of vino, le vin perhaps, that's what we need. That's why I sometimes throw in weird stuff about crop circles and private silly stuff. I know it's against the rules (make them mods irritated) and some on here finds it stupid, irrelevant. Only it's meant as a break. So many sad things needs an outweight. An internal pause is needed.

Oh, and very sorry if I sometimes sounds as everybody's mother... I'm don't want to be, don't need to be that. Have plenty of arguing, fighting, noisy and absolutely wonderful children myself.

posted 306 days ago mark williams:

 Thank you Betina. Thank you for your Analogy Newt. Here is my own.

In many ways you are absolutely correct. History tells us many things, there are many great milestones to indicate how far we have reached along the path from a technological view point. We no longer need to break rocks for tools as people learnt how to work and fashion iron. We have the heliocentric system thanks to Copernicus. Then came Ferdinand Magellan to conclusively prove that the the world was not a dome or the back of a turtle after all. In recent History we have Charles Babbage, he gave us the fore runner to the modern computer that i am using today to write upon. This physical world with all these great wondrous inventions and devises we take for granted, we have such a debt of gratitude to these people.

But along this road of technological advance something has got left behind, lost, forgotten or just neglected, our humanity.

Humanity the thing that defines us as human being, that sets us apart from all life. The kind feelings, our empathy, our ability to treat all animals with kindness and respect and reverence and not just the human animal. Only when we can love and respect all life large and small. When we can say this of ourselves and we all live in a world where there is no suffering because of the selfishness of man, can we say we are truly Human.

Yes i was fully aware my last post would be seen as hostile by some, specifically those with vested interest in animal farming. But I do have a problem with this contradictory behavior pattern of man.

We can see videos of fire men risking their own lives to save the life of a dear a cow a horse from impending danger. But after work wouldn't think twice about going to a burger bar and consume meat with the family to celebrate his triumph at saving the life of this animal. Well, as far as he knows it could be the very animal he had saved earlier.

A farmer can work so very hard to save a life of a calf at berth and i’m sure he gets such a feeling of achievement from this, even give it an identity with a real name. But at the end of the week when its strong, would sell the animal on with the full knowledge that it will end a short life, just to be a part of someones steak and kidney pie. Is this compartmental thinking we see? i’m sure with some this can be said. But with many cases is it that deep down we really don’t care at all? We just want to lie, convince ourself, be perceived by the public as doing good the righteous things, so we can carry on indulging our own selfish desires.

So can i ask if its true then, That A man can be measured by his actions and deeds only, what about his intent, isn’t that the true measure of a man.

posted 306 days ago Dom:

I have had a few new thought on raptors being mobbed over in gardners world Newt, if anyone would like to join us to add your thoughts come on over.

Can I make a suggestion to the website designer, perhaps a 'NEW' icon could flash up on any threads with new posts added. Anyone else think this is a good idea?

posted 306 days ago Dom:

Cheers newt, thanks for the inspiration! keep in touch as I might need a bit of help if you don't mind? and it will be a long path I expect. But it is a dream, so I'll keep you posted.

posted 306 days ago Dom:

Here is an argument we use to have in a past career and I think it is a relevant one so have a think and I would welcome any thoughts.

I refer to reptile keeping. Now I don't have any reptiles and I would 'nt buy a 'new' reptile, I would take in a rescue if needed be mind to join the menegerie!.

Our argument was thus...

There are alot of reptile owners who simply do not know what they are doing, have joined the latest fad and think it is cool to own a reptile. As reptiles do little most owners get bored and we have had to pick discarded ones up from train stations, etc. Also no matter how you try , like tropical fish or any pet animal ( apart from maybe the dog) you can not recreate there 'wild' living conditions in a home even with heat lamps,etc, etc.

seems black and white -lets ban reptile keeping. except  one reptile company who make the lamps, vivariums actually do alot of expeditions in the rainforests, conservation work, studies and have even found new species of unrecorded reptile which say the big conservation groups have missed.

So what is the answer? A because I sure as heck don't know. my colleague who sees the world in black and white is definate that reptile keeping should be banned in the UK. But although I wish i could take a black or white stance on anything, I can't help feel with out this company which gets it funding from the reptile trade who would be going over to the rainforests to do what is really good work. maybe it is simply a huge PR exercise but I have seen the photos and from expeditions and they obviulsy put money into local people and have found new breeds.

So what is the answer to that one? Answers to the usual address.

posted 306 days ago Newt:

Thanks Dom,

When I started I had £27 to my name, no job, no house, no home, my mother's old car and I managed to blag a loan for £10,000 from the bank, but I had no idea how I was going to pay it back.

They all said it couldn't be done - what I've done.

You don't need money. All you need is to start and to keep going no matter what gets thrown at you.

As you can tell it helps to be bloody minded and as stubborn as a mule!

posted 306 days ago Newt:

Betina,

You are a very nice person, thank you for this, but please understand, I am not angry with anyone and I welcome your views and I am happy to talk them through and while I agree that factory farming is wrong, what is being said here by other people, apart from you, Dom, Raindance and Lisa, is that All livestock farming is wrong and therefore there is no place for it in the modern world.

Now I came here to talk about badgers. I came because I have worked hard to protect badgers in general, but especially on my land. I believe that the best way to do that is to erradicate bTB.

Whether we have livestock farming or not in this country, we still need to control bTB because it kills people and in the early part of the last century it killed millions.

But you are all transfixed with the idea that it is a cow disease and because many here don't agree with farming it seems that you almost relish bTB being out there!

The vaccine is failing.

The cures are all failing.

This week Defra have announced that their trials with an oral vaccine have failed again! They say that the next vaccine is ten years away again. Another ten years if it is possible at all!

The government apeared to be on the point of announcing a cull last week, now they've bowed down to pressure from people like these here today, who clearly don't get it!

M. bovis is winning the fight here.

No badgers have been saved.

Frankly I have failed and so have all of you and while you run about congratulating each other on the success of your campaign to stop the cull in Wales, the disease is quietly spreading and infecting more and more species. Causing more pain and suffering - but hey that's okay because at least no one has culled the badgers, right?

Well done,

Newt

posted 306 days ago Dom:

Infact everyone go and have a look at this link.

http://conservationreport.com/2009/03/15/nature-the-amazing-sloth/

It will make even the most hard hearted smile.

I know we all love brock but lets not forget the forgotten animals like my beloved Scottish Wildcat and the hedgehog. As Bruce Lee once said, don't stare at the finger else you will miss all the heavenly glory.Is that a relevant saying? dunno but it soudns good.

Also thanks, maybe your right Newt, right now I have two ten pences to rub together is all, if you have any advice on my plot of land idea let me know in the  a tip for gardners thread.

Your all good people, for even bothering to post here. Alot of people  seem to not give a t0ss about anything but themselves now a days. Sometimes it makes me feel like screaming, when I can see whats happening to our beautiful home. but they are more bothered about 'me me me'

posted 306 days ago Dom:

I gambled with the weather and lost! yesterday was lovely and today its thowing it down.darn...

everyone take five is my advice. Mark I do think you were a bit sweeping with the disney comment. I have met many farmers, one old boy in Wales who adore the animals on there farm.It was all he talked about all week and not in a 'this is going to be worth a few bob'. Yes some farmers I expect don't give a toss but many do, like all professions there are good and bad examples.

Now I'm not at all defending factory farming or some farm practices, like the big fields of monocultures of one crop, which I would like Newts opinion on some time. We need to be talking and working with farmers to sort the ills out, which Newt has accepted there are some in modern farming.

Shouting at each other will just enforce the current 'us and them' which is getting us now where. I'm sure if someone came into my job and told me how to do it I would be pretty p!ssed off to.

In this country we need a balance as farmers work most of the land , we also need food, we need decade old boundaries crossed if this is to happen, our very environment relies on it. 

So Mark and newt I agree with both of your points.But lets all not be quite so judgemental. How many other farmers have come across to share there point of view. I think newts knowledge is essential in gaining some of the things you want Mark. 

The meat industry will always be there, it is the way it is managed is perhaps what needs changing. ITo sound like a parrot if meat was more of a luxury item rather than used as filler food I'm sure we would see a change in the industry.

Sorry don't want to sound liek everyone's mother here:-) 

Did I tell you I met Robert Plant by the way?:-)

posted 306 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I feel I have to step in and defend Mark a bit even I know he's perfectly capable of doing that himself. But Newt, you must realise that most of what we write on here is what we feel and think - don't take it personal, I know you do and there's no reaon for you to do that. It's not you we're against. You don't have to defend factory farming to put in balance, please don't defend such methods. 

You're not ' a sick person' when you eat male lambs. I know you're grateful to be able to do that and the lamb's life was not all a waste then and you treated him well. It's like you're feeling guilty of what you do even you farm the way all farms in the world should be farmed. If everone did this - I'm sure the world would be a better place. Ok, we have each our own beliefs, if we were all alike, this page would be quite boring put please don't be cruel and hateful - there's really no point in that. 

We can't fob opionions on each other only excange them and then comes the hard part - listening and accepting. We can all loose our heads - but then try and stay cool. I too find it hard to do - then I wait a while before I post anything.

posted 306 days ago Newt:

Dom,

There are several breeds of sheep like this, I assume however that you are talking about Wensleydales, others would be Teeswaters, Leicester Long Wools, Lincolns, Cotswolds or Blue faced Leicesters. Not surprisingly they are all related.

It would be quite possible to rent or buy a small plot of land and keep a few sheep, chickens and bees and you would not need to win the lottery. I know an awful lot of people who do. One couple I recently visited to interview for something I'm working on, belong to an allotment society that rent out small plots of land to over a hundred different people on which all sorts of animals and plants and vegetables are kept.

It was a little piece of Heaven in the North East of the country a couple of miles from the sea. Each plot was entirely different to the next, but they were all surrounded by huge old hedges and the air was full of bird song and the heady scent of honeysuckle and flowers.

As with any allotment society there were loads of ramshackle huts of every shape and size made out of all sorts of second hand materials, but somehow it was all very quaint and rustic and reminded me terribly of images I had as a child of reading the Lord of the Rings and the descriptions in the book of Hobbiton.

The people there were lovelly and warm and welcoming and the couple that we visited had a few Ryeland sheep. These were plump and tame and in superb condition. It is no surprise then that these sheep have won some of the top prizes in the UK at shows! Not bad for a flock of less than a dozen!

I have kept both Wensleydale and Ryeland breeds (along with many others) I would not recomend Wensleydales to a novice, they are very big, strong, stubborn sheep that are surprisingly delicate and in line with Blue Faced Leicesters, they tend to die at the least excuse. "Oh the sun's shining, I know I'll die today! ""Oh it's raining, I know I'll die!,"" Oh I don't like that wind, I know I'll die!" Well perhaps not, but that's what it feels like when you keep them!

On the other hand Dom, Ryelands would be a perfect first sheep for anyone to keep. The Ryeland is a very gentle, calm, good natured little thing. they thrive on personal attention and are ideal for small areas and orchards and they are supposed to be quite hardy and robust. Their wool is very good too, but nothing has wool that is as valuable as the Wensledale - it's just no good for the sheep as it doesn't keep the weather out!

The couple that I visited, in line with many good, honest, country folk who are really in touch with nature and live in harmony with it, eat their unwanted male lambs. We do the same. It seems to be perfectly natural to me. I would eat any of the food grown on these allotments because it is all grown to the highest possible standards by people who really know what they are doing and do it because they truly love what they do!

Now I will be told I'm sick, by people who get their food out of packets and tins, restaurants, fast food take outs and the supermarket and their knowledge off the BBC and web sites that they have found that agree with their own twisted values!

What a shame!

Dom, don't waste your life dreaming about what you could do if you won the lottery - just get out there and do it!

Take care,

Newt

posted 306 days ago Newt:

Mark

Ah so sorry, ignorance is bliss! You mean you can't do these things!

Throughout history people have boldly told each other that you can't do this or that. once it was believed that you can't sail too far west or you would drop off the edge of the World, or that if you went more than 20 miles an hour it would kill you, or... well I could go on.

Be as scornful as you like about what I say to you. Trawl the internet for views and oppinions that match yours, there are plenty out there. Stick to a small circle of friends who agree with your twisted version of the "facts".

You asked me to visit a web page and I went, read it, agreed that those problems existed, then tried to explain that in my experience (bearing in mind that you clearly have none) one of these problems is not as serious as you perceive it to be, and why.

You scoff.

Fine.

Who's the bigger the fool?

posted 306 days ago mark williams:

Here's a song for all the dairy farmed cows out their.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJ5jIBpGP0o&feature=related

Well enough of the Disney version of farming. Next someone will write here and tell us they have worked the land man and boy for so long and have sufficient knowledge to actually converse with the cattle. That they were told by the calf that they are looking forward to being taken away from mother.

I'd love to believe that farms are run by people akin in character to Snow White, but they are not. There is no real harmony with nature, it flies in the face of logic. You cant protect a wild bird and its nesting ground but eat a chicken sandwiches when doing it. You cant protect a butterflies habitat but poison the ground with insecticides where they would fly. You cant blame badgers for bTB after a farmer has sowed the fields with contaminated slurry. You can’t name a sick animal, hand rear a calf, lamb or pig from birth, then sell to a slaughterhouse for your sunday roast.

Then i first watched this video words could not describe the feelings i had. This is farming, this is reality. When you decide to farm animals you take away its dignity and free will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OjhPVL48Ks&feature=related

posted 306 days ago Dom:

Also this website is definately worth a read. About Big cat spottings in the UK. Quite an interesting read

http://www.britishbigcats.org/

posted 306 days ago Dom:

Newt! Newt! What are those sheep called with all the dreadlocks?

They are brilliant, if I ever get a bit of land one day, I'd love a couple. Do you reckon thats possible?

To go next to my meadow orchard and bees when I get those to!

Just need to win the lottery!

Farmers Guardian is being annoying, it won't let you browse stores without constantly logging in.I don't want to comment on the stories just read them but it keeps asking for my details :-/

posted 306 days ago Natalie:

@Steven

I can add .

@Betina

Not at all .

posted 307 days ago Dom:

Hi Newt,

Sorry did I give the impression I'm a Cumbrian? Im near the Welsh borders. I;ve visited the lakes goodness how many times, big fell walker here. Love the area, love the North.Ever you want to chat cumbria let me know, such beauty!

Little Star Wars factoid. All Sith lords have the name Darth, then they choose or are given the last name like Vader, Maul, malak, Revan, etc. Good grief I'm a geek at times-lol!

Newt like I say, I know many farmers, my old Grandad use to often have me in tow visiting local farms, so the prejudice for me is 'nt there I would hope, and if you spot it call me out on it.

He loved his sheep, baling twine holding up his trousers, same jumper every week.Well pump in the garden, I never really got to know him that well but apart from him being  a bit short tempered the days I spent playing around his land did bring an essential experince in my life which I would never change.

Also I use to love tractors, Massey ferguson(red), Fiat (the orange ones I think), Ford (blue) and john Deer of course in green. Remeber Brintons farmyard toys?

By the way Newt,and everyone if you are looking for a great film which is based on true events, check out the straight story. It's a film which wlll remind us all of the good in humans and perhasp what humanity is.

I certantly trust your knowledge on livestock, its just when ever I see an animal struggling it breaks my heart. I avoid ants for goodness sake :-) I think I need to become a buddhist.I'll check Temple out.

Hope you all having a good day

Dom

posted 307 days ago Newt:

Arrogant, ignorant, selfish, the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Vader; call me what you will, but that does not alter the fact that I have been around cows and sheep for many years and I have studied their behaviour in more detail than anyone here and I do love my animals very dearly.

Let me drop a name now, Temple Grandin. Look her up. Now there is a lady who really understands animal behaviour and she is truely an animal welfare specialist who has done more for the welfare of farm animals than everyone here put together - including me.

Apparently I was told this morning, she is in the UK at the moment - I would love to hear what she thinks to this issue! Now that would be worth hearing! Or reading even!

posted 307 days ago Newt:

Hi Judi and Dom,

In for lunch.

So sorry Judi, but you are quite wrong, I do not think in the terms that you imagine me to at all. Please let me explain.

Cattle belong to the genus Bovidae. This genus includes all species of cattle, oxen and wild cattle and buffalo, all deer and antelope, and all species of sheep and goats. It is no coincidence that the most dominant species of farm animals belong to this genus. The reason for this are not one of taste or hunting success, but have more to do with the instincts and nature of the genus itself; in other words the standard behaviour of this group, fit well with agriculture. An example of this is that when stalked by a wolf, for example, wild sheep herd together this has led to the development of sheep dogs and flocks of sheep.

At birth all the Bovidae share certain characteristics, most notable here are that their young have evolved due to predation, to be able to do two contradictory things. Firstly the newborn of these species are equipped to get up and run as fast as they can from within an hour of birth. Again it is no coincidence that a day old calf, lamb or kid can out run a human being. The second thing that they have evolved to do is to lie very still in a small huddle, so as to be inconspicuous as possible to predators. An example of this is a deer fawn.

Man has bred sheep and cattle to be a variety of colours, however even a white lamb, in a green field can be very hard to see when it is hiding. You may be surprised but calves too can be very hard to find – our cattle calve in the spring and summer in the field and hide their calves in long rushes. The law dictates that we must eartag them and we find the new born easier to tag, but it can take us a long time to find a calf sometimes, they are so well hidden.

If a species has evolved to run with the herd, individuals need a strong instinct to keep up with the herd. However if a species has evolved to hunt herding animals, it has equally evolved to keep up with the herd and will tend to pick off the slowest or the weakest. The newborn or very young of the herd are then no matches for top predators, so they have adopted the second strategy of hiding. They do it very well.

You will recognise that there is no point hiding, if there is someone nearby pointing at you saying “she is over there”. Any species that did that would soon be wiped out. Therefore, all Bovidae have evolved to walk away from their offspring and pretend that they don’t know where they are. In our suckler cows, they lead a very natural life and once they go out in summer, they are left to get on with life pretty much as wild cattle would do, except we over see the whole thing and only interfere when we have to.

Daisy (sorry not a very original name but my son named her fourteen years ago and yes we still have her) kept the location of her last calf secret for a week. Oh we knew that she’d calved, we knew what field it was in, we just couldn’t find it in the long grass and rushes. But rather than upset either of them, I patiently waited for it to emerge. There was no rush.

So please, cows do not pine for their calves, when they are “taken away” that is just not true, they are perfectly adapted to the situation. However you might perceive it!

On the other hand, I was once called in to help a farm that had had its electricity cut off, after a freak storm (1987 remember it?) and there was no chance of power being put back on so the cows had not been milked for 24 hrs. That was barbaric! The noise that met me when we arrived with generators (the problem was so bad that the electric company hadn’t enough to go around all the farms etc that needed them) the noise was heart stopping – it was like five hundred cows were crying, howling in agony. Which of course they were!

This web page (that we're discussing) said that cows separated from calves make such a horrible noise that no one can doubt that they are morning the loss of their calf. That is the noise that they make when they are desperate to be milked. So how can you tell which emotion they are feeling? easy, when they leave the parour they go back out to the grass again!

Going back to Daisy, in a semi wild position, her calf hidden in the rushes, twice a day she will find that calf and feed it. God help one of the farm dogs (who are hard little buggers) if they get too close then! I myself have been beaten up twice now for getting between a cow and a calf so yes they do love and cherish their calves.

I am not saying that they do not miss their calf; I am saying that their primary instinct is to be milked and cows welcome being milked and frankly they soon get used to the milking machine – some, most even, are never bothered by it al all – and will rush to the parlour twice a day quite happily, and their udders empty, their next instinct is to go out and feed and it is perfectly natural of them to do this without their calf in tow. Very few even pay the calf shed a second look on their way out.

In the suckler herd, most of the time, the calves are off playing on their own or with other calves or the bull even, rather than staying with Mum. We often find the bull with all the calves in one field and the cows in another!

Have you ever spent any time in the company of cows? I promise you, honestly, from the bottom of my heart, there is very little that you can do to stop a really determined cow! I have seen them jump 6’ fences, smash through solid high hedges, break down walls, flatten big strong men and toss them in the air like rag dolls! If they were really as emotionally attached to their calf as you all seem to think, how could we possibly keep them apart?

Sorry but you are just wrong about this, you were wrong the second you thought, “How would I feel in their position?”

You are not bovine.

Take care,

Newt

PS Dom which end of Cumbria are you from? In general please, you don't know who will read this!

posted 307 days ago Dom:

Areggh sorry Betina-hit enter alot again. 

posted 307 days ago Dom:

Hi Newt, busy days mate and some long hours you are having.

You should know I'm not going to have a go at you, glad your here.

Yes feel free to explain your points of view on anything and everything you wish, I certantly have no problems.

Yes I appreciate my observations might have been way off the mark. But I can still here that noise now. And I could hear it from our B+B in Cumbria well into the night.

Hows the natives-have they caught that trout yet?

Also I did try and bring a few other industries in  but no one really responded.

Best

Dom

posted 307 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I can see why many people consider animals different to us, but don't you think that is being arrogant!

Consider this - I have experienced pregnancy and I gave birth to a baby girl. Before she was born I don't recall having any feelings for her. After the birth, that all changed!! The overwhelming emotions I felt for her are no different to those of other animals, including cows.

It is instinct when we feel the urge to nurture and care for our young. It is instinct to be afraid of attack - it instinct to hate those who threaten our young, so what makes you think animals are so different to the rest of us? We are after all, only animals ourselves.

I can only think that it helps to ease the gulit felt by those who like to place animals way down in terms our own importance and with regard their suffering.

posted 307 days ago Newt:

Hi everyone,

Sorry for not being able to get back to you yesterday, I literallly remained in the same field from about 9.00 am to 1.30 am the following day without a break and was unable to read or reply to your very good points. Everything that each of you has said here, since my last post, I have read and it has moved me very much.

Betina,

I understand your views very well; no I have not experienced being pregnant myself, nor have I brest fed, but I do understand, well I feel that I do to the best of my abilities as a man. I have been midwife thousands of times to thousands of sheep and cattle and goats (no it is not the same howver I do understand very well what is happening), I was there for the birth of my own children and I raised them as a "house husband" while my wife went out to work and then went through a very serious illness and nearly died. I am closer to my kids than ...well, that's just my opinion. I get what you are saying 100 %.

Mark,

Yes I understand and agree we are talking about symptoms and missing the underlying problem. Yes we are being selfish. All of us.

Dom,

I hear what you are saying about the cow, I understand and share your concerns. However, have you considered that there might be an entirely different explanation to the behaviour that you witnessed - which is not uncommon by the way - it's just not what you interpret it as?

Before you all jump angrily down my throat, please understand that I am trying very hard to be honest with you all through some very difficult and upsetting emotions that are challenging us all.

In my humble opinion it is wrong to look at animals and say "how would I feel in that position?"

It is wrong because they are not you, they don't think like you, they don't share your knowledge of the world and they have different needs, instincts and behaviours. You know this and then shout at me because I offer different explanations for their behaviour. Quite rightly, how would I know what they are thinking? How arogant! I haven't experienced being a Mum, how would I know what it's like?

Well you are of course quite correct.

However, you have not experienced being a cow or a farmer either but feel better qualified than I to assess the situation. So please that argument is unfair is it not?

My neice, calls me 'Doctor Dolittle' (affectionately and a little teasing, but not unfairly), she went through a rough patch in her life and spent a couple of months here during her summer holidays from Uni. She thought that she knew me, until she spent time with me. What she found, it is fair to say, shocked her, in a good way - but I'm getting off the point. I raise this to put a little into context for you, that I don't just keep animals for profit... From an early age I spent time with animals and I don't just share their worlds, I watch and study them. Instead of trying to see how I would feel in their position, I try to see how they perceive their world - it is very different, trust me...ah, but that's perhaps the problem isn't it?

Anyway, if you would permit me, I can explain in detail how they think, based on my knowledge and experience. That of course would only be solely my opinion and it may or may not be right. However, we must recognise here that despite my best efforts to prove to you that I mean you no harm and that I have always tried to be truthful and honest with you, you clearly and understandably have a deep mistrust of me. It is also challenging many of the beliefs that you hold dear.

Would you permit me to explain? Will you give me a fair hearing?

I do not want to change your beliefs, I don't want to convert you to eating meat, and I am not trying to upset you. All I offer is a differnt perspective and the chance to bring balance to what it seems to me, is a very unbalanced forum.

If you would prefer though, we can go back to just shouting at each other from differnt sides of the fence...but what would that achieve?

Anyway, take care,

Newt

posted 307 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Letter to Newt

About your little essay in trying to get a balanced discussion. Thank you for that, I thought it through, not for a minutte but for several and I want to say something but don't know where to begin. Chicken on a conveyor belt - is it cruel, are they hurt you ask. You say the chicks in the factory are not in pain and that I understand to you, must be some sort of a justification. From your point of view I understand that as long as humane killing, quick killing is the outcome it's alright. They are (just) animals. Treat them respectfully and then BAM - gone in a secund. But to me, there's more to it - that's why I'm on here and other places. Looking at them on the belt, yes I do think exactly what you said; poor creatures having short and pointless lives, same thing with the images of pigs cut in half hanging on hooks, in thousands it seems. Cows on concrete with a machine attaches to their udders, gestating sows in cages where they can't move. Short, pointless and cruel lives.

I'll try to explain. As a female I can relate to many of these actions, machine attached to udders and locked up pregnant in a cell not being able to move around. It's BLODDY DAMN torture and I wonder, if men just once could try being pregnant and breast-feed, if they would allow such practices then? (my deepest appologies to all the men who understand and feel these practices are all wrong). You see, it's also about things that are not facts, not science, not measurable - it's ethics, moral, empathy and needs and choices. Can we do this, do we need this, are there other ways, alternatives. And there are other and better ways so why not choosing another path? Life can be cruel even when it doesn't hurt directly physically or mentally - when life's not fair, not right, and goes completely against our nature. It's not only a matter of being feed and having shelter and you don't need a full-grown human brain to enjoy life.

You say animals have no concept of what is happening, where and what and still you say the lack of the mother figure really frightens them. Every new creature born need their mother why should that be different to animals? So you're right! And every mother need their babies. It's all in the genes and instinct. Babies don't look at other babies, thinking 'it's alright, I'm with them' - babies can DIE if they're neglected, if they're just feed and given shelter - they can still die of lack of care and love. Now you probably going to throw 'the human versus animal' card - that I can't compare. Again, I wish you could be pregant and breast-feed, because someting happens - some women hate it, they want the baby, but hate being pregnant, breast-feeding and staying home nursing. I think it's because we as humans have drifted away from being primitive humans - primitive is a negative loaded word. But that's what it is being pregnant, especially giving birth and breast-feeding, it's nature up close - we're all back to basic and for the majority it's easy yet hard, you just go along with it, you have to and then it's a god damn miracle. Of course our modern time has a certain limit - we don't breast-feed long compared to more primitive people, we have to work, be on time, be pretty, be sexy, be skinny- all such things doesn't really fit into this incipient journey of motherhood. Still the bonds to our babies are strong and solid.

We have choices now, and I don't know why we have choosen to live the way we do, why humans have this brutallity inside. As a friend of mine said after losing his very beloved wife who died after a short and extremely painful fight against cancer, he said something like this; The world is brutal and if I have to reconcile with a God who created this world, I have to believe he was idealistic and good hearted and in his naivety he created the human but very soon he found out that what he made had a manufacturing fault which he couldn't repair, there was nothing he could do to change it. He tried with Jesus - but with no luck. I'm no pretending to be some kind of a saint or something - I'm a human, done stupid things, yelled at my kids, been unresonable for whatever reason, tired, frustrated, confused. I've had my share of meat and I knew something was not right still I continued eating meat and cheap it was - I didn't really had the time to dwell on it. All I've been told would have to change and for a long periode so many things were going on I kind of lost myself, there wasn't time. Then time came to me and how can I disregard what's happening now I know? I'm constantly challenged to what I've been told and it's not easy changing a life style. I'm hanging on.

So we have animals to care for and babies to care for and just because they don't know what's up and down, where and when, who and what it doesn't mean we can do with them whatever we like. There's much more to it than respect and in hugging bunnies. As I wrote before; The essence in everything is the way you look at a creature. What I mean is, you can look and say, oh it's just a baby, a little boy, an animal, a woman - what do they know? It's your choice! Perhaps you don't understand all this - it's a bit unstructured. All I can say is, that it's an honest attempt explaining my feelings about animals who doesn't speak a language we understand, and if we had to wait figthing for their rights and needs until every human had it, I'm afraid we would have to wait a zillion years. They can't wait that long.

posted 307 days ago mark williams:

So now What?

An end to the milk industry “tempting newt”

However people may think this would solve the problem, but i think the affects would be short lived. “A bit like a badger Cull”

Its a problem thats bigger, deeper rooted and widespread in the human population.

But to acknowledge that we have a problem in our actions is a first step in finding a cure for any ailment.

What we have discussed, argue over, and sometimes fallen out about are only its symptoms.

What we need is a cure for the ailment, once we have isolated it, figured out how it works, how it manifests and spreads in the human population, we can then work on its cure.

I have a name for this ailment though, Its called Selfishness.

So perhaps becoming a little more altruistic would help us all?

posted 307 days ago Dom:

Newt you ask 'and now what?'

Cut down or cut out on dairy, spread the word is my best suggestion.

Eggs is simpler, but buying from from farm shops or local people who are selling eggs, whihc is becoming more commonplace in the UK I belive.

Newt you work in the industry what suggestions would you make?

On a slightly different note, I have noticed my district council is leaving grass in some parks and road verges and island long. Which is great, so I emailed them to compliment them and suggested sowing meadow seeds as well.

These 'no man land' areas really seem to be wasted but could be little and sometimes quite large sancutaries for insects and butterflies. And there are loads of them.

Are councils doing the same in anyone esle's district? And if not maybe suggest it and if so an email to commend them won't hurt. especially as the people who like everything neat and tidy will soon complain.

posted 307 days ago Dom:

Infact define humanity and does it still apply?

posted 307 days ago Dom:

Ive googled puffed fox, what is this about? Any links? And how do you do a live link on here? Newt- how are the North American I Indians doing? As for the chicks and dairy, I dunno, it makes me question humanity and How have we turned into this. Is there really ant hope for any of us? I once went hiking in Cumbria at about 8am and walked past a cow stood by the wall Mooing. I looked over the road into the opposite field and the calfs were there. What broke my heart was walking back past these fields at 9pm the same day, she was in the same spot still mooing for the calfs I presume , she sounded distressed. It broke my heart because I knew she has no way of understanding why, I could nt tell her could I. I remember that day clear as day, can't remember where we hiked , we usually spend the whole day in the fells but I rwmebe that and it's about 5 yr ago now. Sorry to be so depressing but it made a big impression on me. Dom

posted 308 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I mean: it sounds awful.

posted 308 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Sorry Natalie, I thought you were a troll, meaning someone who sneaks in and say odd things. I'm so relieved but not of your findings, it's sound awful.

posted 308 days ago StevenAult:

That sounds interesting Newt! You'd take them over lampers and hunters any day right?

Hi Natalie, I know English is'nt your first language and it sounds like you've encountered cruelty. Can you provide a link to the pictures so we can see xxx   

posted 308 days ago Natalie:

@Dom . I mean that I've got photos of puffed foxes from Polish National Park . And I think it's sick...

posted 308 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, do they come in peace?

I'm positive about that so why not bake them a welcoming cake or something, go over there and have a little chat. They might be kind people. And they will always remember you for your effort:)

posted 308 days ago mark williams:

I quote,

This is one more step that allows feed yards to improve on their efficiency with beef production, capture more pounds of beef per animal, and potentially reduce the cost of beef to the consumer.

How long then before we have cattle that go lame and cant walk just to big through the use of unnatural feeds.

Here is the whole artical.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110610094509.htm

posted 308 days ago Newt:

On a lighter note, a neighbour of mine is this week hosting a group of hippy types who have errected a number of full sized authentic Native American Tepees on his land (right next to our boundary. Being the mature, grown up individual that I am, I find myself unable to go past these wigwams without puckering up, slapping my mouth and doing a full Sioux war cry -owowowowowowowowowow!

No don't laugh, it is apparently not very funny at six o'clock in the morning, when you have been kept awake all night by owls whooting and oystercatchers screaming - well serves them right, they pitched their tents right over the area that the oystercatchers nested on and by the tree the owls nest in! Living off the land ain't as easy as some like to think!

I'm told that this morning they are going to catch a trout in the lake for breakfast - been at it for three hours now and caught nothing! I hope they brought a can a beans - oh no that's cowboys isn't it? Better go and count my buffalow, there was one kid with a toy bow and arrow! Nerrr fat chance! The bull will scare 'em to death!

posted 308 days ago Newt:

Mark

Thank you for your honesty. Yes mate, I want to use the F word too!

In answer to your question, no it is not true, blood is not fed back to cows. This was the case, it was also the case that dead animals were rendered down (which is basically what you are talking about) and fed back to ruminants, however since BSE (mad cow disease) this has been illegal.

As an aside, I always opposed the practice.

I have thought long and hard about this answer and you must realise that I will be in deep trouble for saying this, but....

Okay...

I accept that the problems outlined on this web page (http://milkmyths.org.uk/report/lifemodern.php) exist.

They exist and some are bigger problems than others.

I can see that, knowing these problems exist, you would want to see an end to dairy farming and that would certainly work in removing the problems. I can also see that you can live without dairy.

I can't give you that. It is my not in my power to close down the dairy industry and I wouldn't want to, but I do acknowledge these prolems exist and you will observe if you look back through my writing here that I have mentioned some before - such as dairy cows producing more milk than one calf can manage.

So now what?

posted 308 days ago mark williams:

Hi newt,

See how i refrain from the use of the F word.

This seems like a loaded question to me.

I will answer though. First Viva, i don't know much about this organisation, other than it has caused some to question their intent and sincerity, i believe? The article is one of many i happen to have on my mac thats all. But if this is not convincing enough, would you like to see more from different organisations, what about some from America?

Dairy cows i have seen with my own eyes, the videos just backs up my own feelings of what i feel is right and what i feel is wrong. I personally do think though, if the industries involving animals and products from animals is left unchecked, we can expect even greater misery and disfigurement born of the test tube.

A question for you Newt,

Is it true that the blood of the dead cows from abattoirs, is dried put into sacks and then fed back to dairy cows. Used as a mineral and vitamin supplement for the next batch of animals.

posted 308 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Puffed foxes or a troll slipping through?

posted 308 days ago Dom:

Interesting Guardian article....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2011/jul/12/pets-environment-bad-cats-dog

What are your thoughts?

posted 308 days ago StevenAult:

Anyone see this on the BBC news site? ......dissapointing.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-14137335

Lisa, just think of me as an annoying brother.

Natalie, can you write a bit more please? Maybe we can help.

Dom, you're such a name dropper! I write on a site set up by Brian May!

posted 308 days ago Dom:

Steven: Yes you can get a complete dog food, Wafcol make it, its a high quality food to.

Betina: Planty lives round these parts, he was really down to earth. We also have John Bonham buried this way to!

Animal of the day: The Cheetah!

posted 308 days ago Dom:

Natalie? Explain a bit clearer what you mean, puffed or stuffed?

posted 309 days ago Natalie:

Okay , I found this photos of puffed foxes . And I've got the question: Can we do something with it?

posted 309 days ago Newt:

Mark

Just come in for dinner and read your link. I don't really know what to say, so perhaps you could answer a few questions about it for me please. Are these cows the ones that you are talking about when you talk of highly bred monsters? Is this where you get your knowledge of farming from? Do you support VIVA?

posted 309 days ago Newt:

Mark and Steven

I see your point of view, I really do actually. If you look at dairy farming this way, from the outside, it would seem to be a very accurate description. There are farms - of course there are - where this view point would seem to be totally accurate. It is however just wrong - I'll have to think about this and come back to you with a better reply. Please be patient, I didn't get in until after midnight last night and I'm still a little befuddled.

Steven has just told me about cyber bullying - I hate bullies, if there is anything I can do to help Steve, then please let me know. At the age of three apparently I am supposed to have attacked a ten year old who was bullying my sister - not very proud of that but I get reminded of it by my mother even today (when her Alzeimers allows her glimpses into her memory). Anyway, for what ever reason, bullying is wrong and we should stand up to it so well done and please, that has nothing to do with anything we've said here.

While I was mindlessly driving up and doown in my tractor last night baling - in the last field at last, but still got half of it to do! - I was thinking about your view of factory farming and in particular Betina and her TV programme on chickens.

I'm doing it again aren't I? I'm defending factory farming, when I've spent my life trying to get away from such systems! Why? Because I want to bring you around to the dark side? No absolutely not! I welcome your input, I value your views and beliefs! I share many of them myself and Betina you know this, as you keep reminding me (which I need, good for you) we agree on so much of this...But...

Balance.

It's all about balance. Sometimes, in our attempt to root out what is wrong, sometimes - just sometimes - we get so fixed on attack that it clouds our judgement and this corrupts our values - we all do it - both sides of any debate do this - me too.

In the interests of balance, and I am not defending factory farms, you must have seen that film showing day old chicks in a hatchery going through a factory on a conveyor belt? I hate it, don't you? But is it cruel? Oh I know it looks cruel, but is it? Do the chicks actually get hurt?

I can hear you all rushing to your key pads right now, but before you do, stop and think this through for a minute. I'm not going to argue with you if you disagree with me, but let me explain this a little. Just for the sake of balance.

I saw a documentary many years ago about a mallard, she had made a nest high up in a hollow tree - twenty or more feet - what's that? 7 metres - above the ground. This is not that uncommon actually, up there the nest is safe from ground predators such as fox, badger, hedgehog or dog. The problem occurs when the chicks hatch.

When a duckling hatches it is fine for the first 24 hrs, but then it has to drink water and eat and the mallard duck is not equiped to provide that, so she leaves the nest and from the ground below calls her chicks. One by one the tiny little balls of fluff jump from the tree, flapping their tiny stumpy little wings, spread eagled, their little webbed feet out behind, they drop to the ground, not like a brick or a feather really, more like a soft toy. They hit the ground, bounce, flip, bounce, roll, bounce again and finally come to a halt. Jump up and rum peeping to mum. One by one they all do it. Totally uninjured.

In real life, I have seen ducklings and chicks do all sorts of heart stopping and apparently suicidal things, but they just bounce and get up. The most common, with all forms of poultry, is getting stood on by mum!

Cruel? No not really, because chicks have a very low body mass to volume.

When an adult goose stands on its chick (or duck or hen on their chicks) the chick is quite distressed and peeps very loudly. But when it falls off the waterfall into the pond? Not a murmer, until it realises mum's not there. Again the same was true of the ducklings falling out of the tree, apparently the fall didn't upset them, it was the lack of the mother figure that really frightened them!

The chicks in that factory are not in pain, if they were, I would be able to see it in their behaviour (I have been around poultry for over 40 yrs so I do know what I'm talking about sorry). You think when you look at all that "Oh my God! Look at the poor little creatures, how cruel! And they are going to only have such short pointless lives and then get killed and eaten all for the sake of man! How cruel!"

I know this because you tell me.

What do they think? They have just hatched, they have no concept of what is happening or where they are going or of what they are missing if they hatched in the wild with a real mum. They have no language to describe these abstract thoughts. I asume and I know you are all now going to tell me I'm wrong, but I asume (based on 40 yrs direct experience) that they are looking around at all the other chicks around them and thinking "Oh I'm with them, they're like me, what's that? Where are we going?"

If that!

Animals all tend to live in the moment, although of course they build memories and have relationships and interact with others around them. But almost every species that I have ever worked with, tend to bond with the humans around them - if treated with respect.

Surely here the important part is respect - which is what you all keep saying is it not?

Wel I can see and I totally agree that these chicks are not getting the respect that they deserve - but is that cruel here? Sorry, but I don't think so, because they are coming to no harm it is no worse than your children on a merry-go-round or roller coaster. And yes I know it isn't their choice, but none of us get to do what we want all the time do we? Personally I would love to be on a beach in Fiji right now, but instead I have work to do and haven't had a holiday in years!

Well I agree with much of what you say and I'm not defending factory farming, I hate that whole factory bit as much - possibly more than you do. But just because it looks cruel does not necessarily mean it is as cruel as you perceive it to be...

What I'm trying to say is get your facts right and you will be a more effective campaigner that's all.

I'll come back to dairy farms another time.

Take care,

Newt

posted 309 days ago mark williams:

Mark a question, why should a dairy cow live an autominous life? Some do by the way, some can be transfered into less demanding roles.

Here is my answer newt,

Symbiosis, You used this word in one of your posts so i thought i'd answer you using the same term. 

Symbiosis, a close relationship between two different organisms living in close physical association, normally to the advantage of both.

Do i see farming as a Symbiotic relationship between man and cow for instance. 

 Please read this link for the break down of the life of a Dairy cow.

http://milkmyths.org.uk/report/lifemodern.php

Now did you read all that?

Parasite, an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host's expense.

Parasite is the word i’d use and if you read the link, this is what’s wrong between man and cow. 

To generalise:-

The rule it would seem. If a human can subdue another living organism. Then that organism no longer can expect its freedom, it’s liberty, it’s autonomy. How selfish and base does that sound. What a sad imprisoned world are we creating for us and all life. 

posted 309 days ago George:

Yes Newt it was me who said two wrongs don't make a right, I don't think you truly understood what I meant when I said that... If you did you wouldn't still be pro-cull

You might be interested to know I've been observing the continuity of debates on here and still do not believe you have offered a good argument for culling, either morally or scientifically, but I'll keep watching on.

posted 309 days ago StevenAult:

Dom, you argue better than the meat-eaters! Some good questions there. They try to use as much of the animal as possible because so much has gone into producing it. The use of by-products relies on people's ignorance basically. If women knew that the keratin in their shampoo was basically ground up hooves, horns and feathers, would they use it? I don't think the by-products justify the amount of resources invested in producing the 'animal'. If people knew what was in dog food I don't think they'd buy that either! Or cheap burgers come to think of it! Offal. Gross. Dogs can be veggie too! They eat anything, rather like herring gulls. We do use a lot of leather don't we? It's not an argument that worries me too much though. Lisa, I have'nt swapped meat with potatoes and rice. No wonder you had the iron problem!  Oh behave!

posted 309 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, so you met Robert, where and how? Bet he was nice.

Lisa, you forget someting in your calculations and that is people eat way too much - of everything. That is, in our part of the world. And what about raised beds - so sorry for my ignorence but why hasn't this excellent method been adopted by the industrial farming business? You get more crop on lesser space, lesser weed... I don't get it. Methane... is that only a bad thing for the planet? How little I know.

posted 309 days ago Dom:

Got to love the enter key Betina! I'll behave, well I'll try!

posted 309 days ago Dom:

Hi Lisa, nothing directly and I'm not one hundred percent sure so forgive errors.

But all our packaging, wrapping, anything plastic, I belive requires oil.Oil is estimated to rum out in 50 years. I am not sure how much is used in sythetic clothing for example, but if we run out of oil and don't use animals, what do we use? Does polyester use oil in it's composition? Just wondering is all?

posted 309 days ago Lisa Patterson:

You raise some good points, Dom. Forgive my ignorance but how are plastics related to animals?

posted 309 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Stephen, all plants contain protein. Granted, potatoes and rice are more known for their carbohydrate content, but as plants they have a huge protein content as well. Look at the protein yield per hectare graph that was in my post where I posited my question. It's massive. Ant shift away from livestock farming would invariably increase the amount of potatoes and rice that is consumed - that is unavoidable. An increase in the production of rice and potatoes will increase the amount of methane in the atmosphere, which will affect the environment, which will, in turn, hurt animals.

posted 309 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I'm here Dom, finally kids are in their beds, only one down though but they're in their beds which means - Tada - 'mommy time'! I meant to say that factory/industrial farming is the most damaging to earth compared to farming on a smaller and more humane scale - not compared to all other industries, sorry folks. 

I like your soapbox Dom, however, may I ask you one tiny question? What's up with the space man? The paragraphs... your post are unusually long because of that, so I was wondering if you could be more careful with the Enter key? Please ♥

If aliens could see us - they'd be thinking 'what the f... are they doing down there' where's the love, compassion and time?"  

posted 309 days ago Dom:

Anyone there?

Without trying turn this into my personall blog, how about the Vet industry?

This is 'nt an attack on vets, my vet is excellent and I have no complaints.

However Im not sure I subscribe to this 'Vet has the last say' on everything and thus is always right.

I have heard some horror stories, and my mother In law lost her dog to a vet error.

I have also had a lady asking for a zero protein food , as recommended by her bet for her dog. There is no such thing and without protein eventually you die.

How about the vets bills which go into thousands of pounds and call out fees of up to £200, all of whihc I have heard. Does this industry need regulating?

The offset is of course, more and more animal owners simply can't afford to treat their animals so the animals can suffer.

Anyway I'll leave it there I've talked enough about everything

Dom

posted 309 days ago Dom:

I have just thought of a good if rather cheesy tag line for my motor industry rant.

'The Motorcar-has mankind just speeded up the journey into oblivion?'

Told you it was cheesy but  good Guardian headline I think :-)

posted 309 days ago Dom:

Oh and Newt and Steve on tolerance.

I always try and take each person as a person. But I think it is genetically impossible not to make a 1st impression. I guess its the 2nd impression which really counts, beacsue thats when you scratch under the surface and find out who they are.

I am as guilty of prejudice as the next person ( I nearly said man so there you go, one example)

One thing and maybe all can add there thoughts, is are the powers to be, do they fuel the rural vs urban segragation. Do they fuel these arguments to keep us at each others throats through manipulation and propaganda so they keep us pre-occupied whilst they carry on funniling the power or money or whatever into there own resevoirs? 

Sounds like a barmy conspiracy theory but do you think there is a grain of truth there or are we pre-disposed of this attitude?

And as for the media, well Im not going to comment on the badger situation personally right now, but if I wanted my website say, to gain a lot of attention and thus hits which means my sponsors would be happy and give me more cash, i would publish a controversial badger story.

.I get off my soap box-thnaks for your time, sorry if I have rambled on.

And by the way...just thought I'd re mention it-I met ROBERT PLANT! Led Zepllin, ya know, a rock legend-ROB PLANT!

posted 309 days ago Dom:

And finally, 

other industries.

How about the motor industry. Would whoever (was henry T ford) have created the car if he could see the world now?

we all know the emmissions, but the other factors.

The miles and miles of road, the vast quantity of materials and energy required to create just a single fordie crappy (youtube a mass car factory, you will be suprised). 

The carparks, the energy to power roadlights and traffic lights and signs, 365 days a year.

The energy to power even electric cars. 

Then the isolation they create. Public transport down the pan. No one wants to sit with the nut jobs on a bus (which can happen but thats what ipods are for). Town centres are just ghost towns as retail has moved ontot he outskirts in vast retail parks.

War machines are now faster to mobilise, and think A-bomb in Japan. how did that get there?

Or Germany's Blitzreig using Panzers.

The impatience and greed a car  can bring. A car is status. BEEP BEEP, THE LIGHT IS ON GREEN YOU STUPID B£$%^&TARD!BEEEEEEP!

The closing down of small hospitals and.........

I could go on and on and the sad thing is, Im a hypocrit because I love World rally Championshio and Would love a Ferrari GTO 1984 model.

ANy other industries you would liek me to cover?

heres one for you lot, what are your feelings about the pet trade?

posted 309 days ago Dom:

I'm going to become a veggie sith lord here for a moment.

I shall call myself Darth Dominus to add a bit of theatre to the occasion.

But if we were to stop farming all livestock, what about all the by products we get?

Pet foods, shoes, clothes, dairy.

If the oil is running out-50years I heard until we are running on fumes, what about plastics? What then. 

So what will we use if we have no oil and no animals?

Might light sabre is drawn!

(but go easy I am a veggie and my light sabre is actually a very wonky carrot but .....)

posted 309 days ago Dom:

Hi all,

I have been reading this all day and have 'nt had chance to comment so here goes.

Firstly I'll answer the idolising animal thing from my viewpoint.

Idolising animals as you know has  been done since man was able to paint on cave walls, the egyptians worshipped the cat, is it Hindus who beleive the cow sacred and they can't be killed?

I am sure there are a 1000 examples from history,The English Lion or Bulldog, but we still do it now, whether humanity realises it or not.

Off the top of my head....The Ford Puma,cougar, mustang, The Mallard Steam Train, F-18 hornet, F-14 Tomcat, The  Blackbird, The US Army are full of them!  Tigermoth bi-plane, the list goes on.

Then there are the logos, flags , nicknames. The animal kingdom is intertwinned with humanity and usually to show how effective a machine, person, company are, like the f-16 fighting falcon, or the Nazi's Tiger tanks. Or fast and free like a Ford Mustang.

Offers would be fictional figures, like Batman, spiderman, the penguin, Bambi, Finding Nemo-where do I stop? even Wulf the Gladiator-remeber him he was very scary........RAR!..... not :-)

Personally I think this is a tad hypocritical, when we want to emulate there qualities but have put so many onto the endangered list.

I think the North american indians had a very good view of it all, and naming a chopper after them, the apache seems again a bit of a cheek, as we conned them out of  land and slaughtered them

I would consider animals as equals in the fact they have every right to be here as much as us.

To exploit them, or to be cruel is really just harming ourselves. Do I worship them? Worship is to strong a word, nature yes maybe, but respect them most definately and nature is a cruel mistress and some animals kill in a way which we would call inhumane. What about spiders for example?

But then they have just evolved. I really do think no animal does anything unless it is for a purpose. They won't waste the energy. Animals do have emotions, a dog is happy to see it's owner, a cat, well my cat can get ....cross and agitated. They also know fear and pain.

however there emotions are not half as complex as ours, most of it is pure instinct and reaction.

So where am I going with this.....no idea!

So respect is the word I would use, and thus I feel that when people buy meat, it should be for a special meal they will enjoy, not fast food and filler meat for sandwiches.

I am also a tree hugger....TREEISM? Sometimes when you see these old trees cut down my heart sinks. They have been on this earth longer than us and would probably be here. All the generations of animals and people they have had live and pass under there branches. Some old oaks here have seen off two world wars, and probably date back to the Boer Wars.

If an alien was to look down on us......would it stop by or hurry on off?

Would it ponder at the way we have trees which provide our very oxygen ...yet we cut them down, the water we drink, we poison.

Hypothtically what would an alien visitor think of us.

posted 309 days ago StevenAult:

When you post here Newt, I do have a pre-conceived vision of what you look like. You've seen my photo so I guess you know what I look like. Was it what you expected? I know you're not Darth Vader Newt. My intelligence just about stretches that far. I'm helping a young veggie girl who's being cyber bullied on facebook. She's the subject of a viscious hate campaign. Prejudice happens everywhere. Some is illegal, some is 'fair game' unfortunately.  

posted 309 days ago Newt:

No I'm not, but this is an interesting psychological trick is it not? I have had it done to me, you try to think of yourself as not prejudice in any way, but when someone challenges your preconceptions, you suddenly think, hold on, that isn't the person that I thought I was talking to, then you realise that you were judging them by the colour of their skin, their age, gender and in this case occupation. But why shouldn't we have black farmers? Well we do, but saddly very few.

No Steve, I'm not Darth Vader, you would like me to be, because then I would fit better into your view of farmers, but really, you and I are not as different as we would both like to think that we are. Veggie bashing is wrong, white male bashing is wrong too. Type casting anyone on their appearance or social grouping, gender, colour or ability is wrong, but we all do it. Only by facing up to it can we address the issue in ourselves.

posted 310 days ago StevenAult:

You're black Newt? A black farmer in the UK? Really? I apologise then, I should have called you Darth Vader, not the Emperor. Anyone who's part of a social group will unfortunately encounter hatred and persecution. There's lots of veggie bashing, and white male bashing actually!  

posted 310 days ago Newt:

Oh and actually I am black.

posted 310 days ago Newt:

You both raise some very good points with which I agree. First of all apologies, I was not sayinig that you were slave owners at all, as you quite rightly point out I was drawing parallels. And only with the "It's not you it's all the others". It is the predjudice that I am attacking, not you personally - God now you've got me doing it!

Mark a question, why should a dairy cow live an autominous life? Some do by the way, some can be transfered into less demanding roles.

Can I point out that I am not a dairy farmer. I have worked for dairy farmers and I have milked cows, but I am not a dairy farmer. Can I also point out that I have worked in a wide range of other farming types, both intensive and extensive and I have to say that in any field of farming, there is no closer and happier relationship than that between some dairy farmers and their cows. It is more a symbiosis than the slavery you view it as.

Top producing dairy cows are like athletes (no really) they can only give of their best, if they are given the best possible conditions.

The fact that they then come to rely on the hand that feeds them, does not make them or their keepers' monsters.

You are all absolutely correct in saying that "my side" stereotype you. Perhaps I should stand up more for you all when with "my side". But as Mark says, "Two wrongs don't make a right" or was that George?

But you should know, I am probably nearer to your side than you might realise.

Talking about Farmism or bunnism is probably good, because that way we will all learn more tollerence.

But yes I do feel a bit like the new N on the block and no farming is not the biggest industry to affect this planet. The defence industry, the banking industry and the chemical/ petrochemical industries are all bigger and play more significant roles than agriculture. Possibly followed closely by the media industry that shapes attitudes and minds - think about it.

Anyway I have more grass down so I might not get back until much later.

posted 310 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, so now you're the black man in a sea of white - and we're all a bunch of slave owners? That's a very mean parallel and odd.

But I get your point, though. I know the industrial way of farming to some extend has reached even small farmers and its community, meaning you've learned efficiency and adopted machinery and the 'no-waste mentality. Or to be more correct, factory farming adopted this from small farmers put it all through a high technological machinery and stretched it to a far more extreme degree. This was never the intention, I think!

I do like the word FARMISM, meaning a stereotype perception of farming, focusing mostly on livestock farming and seeing this as evil to animals no matter size of farm and how many animal friendly implementation made and how many good intentions behind. A counterpart to that perception is when we're called 'bunny-huggers'. You could call it BUNNISM; meaning a stereotype perception of people who care about animals, seeing animals as being better than humans but at the same time are being selective, only focussing on cute furry animals and not having a realistic view on non-human creatures but sees them as an extention of humans and believing animals having human like emotions.

We are referring to factory farming, industrial farming as being the evil of the most evil ways to farm - and the most damaging to earth but where's the line? It's easy seperating a very small farm from a gigantic factory farm but what about all the farms in between. Smaller farms can be run as a big factory farm so just by being small doesn't say anything about how animal/earth friendly the environment on the farm is. I guess we could use another word for compassionate farming but in all communities there's a risk of being manipulated or should I say brainwashed, indoctrinated to believe what's right or not and I hope opposite communities to ours are aware of that too..... we have to be careful not to let that happen. When meddling (bravely) in on a community which has the opposite views you must realise there's a certain jargon and even though we seem to be one big happy family we do have our differences, we argue and fight and do not agree on everything but when we're confronted or attacked by 'outsiders' we stick together - sounds like quite a normal family, right?

BTW, When you think about it - and speaking on behalf of women worldwide, women are still niggers of the world (slaves of the slaves) so being looked upon as a slave owner is cruel. I know you were trying to draw a parallel, this was not the best to choose but indeed the most sensitive - therefore deliberately perhaps.

The essence in everything is the way you look at a creature.

posted 310 days ago mark williams:

Do you think it’s ok that we humans bread an animal that can’t live an autonomous life, that would quickly die a painful death if not for a human milking it. Our only motive for this is to make more money from this animal.

To keep animals indoors that never see or feel the warm light of sun and some in cages so small they cant even turn around. That are fed antibiotics just to keep them from dying from the filth they have to endure. The only thing they have to look forward to in a shortened life is their undignified death. The animals that are forced to perform unnatural acts for our entertainment everyday of the week, live and moved around in tiny cages.

slavery ended when people became enlightened and educated, in the fact that all men are equal, that no man can be judged by the colour of his skin his creed, race or intellect.

But why stop there, does not all life deserve these same basic rites and principles we humans see as fundamental to our well being?

posted 310 days ago mark williams:

Morning Newt,

Then colour came along to show us it wasn't the white hats versus the black hats.

I can only speak for myself here newt, but i don't think its farmers versus bunny huggers or good versus evil. I am here to learn and the more i learn the more i find i want to take part.

You have been a wealth of knowledge to us all here, i’d like more from farming to join, do you know any more farmers out their that has a pennies worth?

I don't want to see the end to farming either that would be foolish, we all need food don't we. But the ethics of food production is up for questioning. “Why do i think this” Because it is one industry that affects all life on earth.

I agree this woman wrote this rubbish to invoke a reaction i’m sure. she certainly got my hackles up and pointing her way. But look at it another way, it gave us new energy, perhaps newt its why other people have used the same technique here.

posted 310 days ago Newt:

Raindance

I get your point, you have all been very welcoming to me, thanks, but my problem is not with your treatment of me at all, it is of your treatment of farming. The points being discussed here, by Lisa and Steve, are all very fair and balanced on both sides, this is a good dscussion. Some of the rants about dairy farming in particular are not at all balanced - ie that cows are over bred and plugged into machines and their calves ripped from them etc.

The arguments, I am quite content to discuss, the bit I most struggle with is the passive racism- no not the right word, perhaps there isn't one, I shall invent one - farmism behind many of the comments. Many of you, are hiding behind the "it's not you it's all the others" excuse.

How can I explain?

Have you ever read the book "Roots" by Alex Haley? I read it when it first came out - you know it is the semi fictional story of the ancestors of Alex himself, a modern black American. When I first read it, I thought that I understood racism and the whole slavery issue and I was expecting violence of all types and the horrible degradation of the slaves - which it obviously discussed. What shocked me most and still brings me up short today, was the routine every day rascism that still pervades society today.

Kunta Kinte has a daughter Kizzy, the little black child is adopted by the plantation owner's niece (if I remmember correctly) a spoilt white child who treats the black child like a toy. They become friends, but it is a sick one sided friendship, based on enequality and racial hatred. Like all little girls they play games together, and Kizzy is taught to read - which is against the rules and eventually she is sold off for this "crime".

Through out this section, the little white girl addresses the little black one as her "friend" and talks in general terms about how thick and stupid and ignorant all black people (She routinly uses the N word) are. "But it aint you Kizzy, you's okay, you aint as dumb an' lazy as all dem other N.s is, you's special, you's diff'n't. I love you Kizzy!"

Then when Kizzy is found out to have the basic knowledg of reading, they sell her into poverty and rape. Her son Chicken George grows up working for his white father who treats him a little bit better than he treats his other slaves, which is disgusting to say the least, so it isn't much better.

As they go off on their travels, the Massa is often talking alone to George and once again we see the same thing; constant racist generalisation about black people, followed by, "Hell it ain't you N, you's okay, it's dem other N.s that is no good down right lazy, good for nothing...."

Get it?

You all tell me, I'm okay, its the those other factory farmers that are cruel, that are destroying the environment, that don't care about wildlife, that are this and that...Sorry but it just ain't so.

Do you think a child grows up and says "I hate animals, I want to see them all suffer - I know - I'll go into farming!"

Okay, we get some lads who grow up in the countryside and enjoy the whole hunting, fishing, shooting thing, but for what ever reason, don't do well at school or perhaps don't try, and they do enter farming. But I can assure you, if they are cruel to their animals, they don't do well.

I did quite well at school - without trying - my parents insisted that I kept going to the next level with my education, so I went all the way, before I finally escaped and went into farming. I chose that way, precisely because I do love animals and nature and I'm far from unusual. Now I write two newsletters for breed societies and I know people all over the country and I just don't know more than a couple of people who are trully cruel.

The biggest problem in farming, is exactly the same problem that I see here, institutionalised behaviour. In many ways all farmers tend to treat livestock a bit like slaves, I accept that, I work against that all the time and I am glad to help you here with that - all I ask is that you consider the possibility that while farming is sick, it can be cured.

Death is a part of life. If you work with life, whether wild life or farm life, you meet death. There are good deaths and bad deaths. God know's that I've sen my fair share of both! A good death (IMO) is a quick, sudden and unexpected one. A bad death is a long drawn out, slow and painful one. I would choose the former any day of the week. I hope I don't spend a long time slipping into a slow, degrading, wasting away, like consumption.

As humane people, surely it is better to have "ethical omnivores" who support "humane Killing" rather than some brutal and cruel murdering machine? But it may not be possible to have a completely cruel free world. Some here like to think of animals in the wild, ideallising them and seeing them more noble than us. Wolves are often mentioned. This is is a false belief. All canines kill in a most brutal and cruel way, they kill by ripping and tearing and blood loss. Isn't that why you oppose fox hunting? Wolves kill buffalow in a very long and slow way.

Anyway, that's my perspective, and I am far from unique, most farmers I know and there are thousands with farms of all sizes, would agree with much I have said here.

Thank you for your patience, but it would be nice to be able to talk about another industry apart from farming.

Take care,

Newt

posted 310 days ago StevenAult:

Lisa, why would we switch from meat protein to potatoes and rice? They are carbohydrates not protein. Surely crops produced for livestock feed have to be washed of pesticides too? I don't eat more rice and potato as a veggie. Lisa, I'm talking about the 70% of crops globally which are fed to livestock. Better to feed people than livestock. 

posted 310 days ago Lisa Patterson:

This is the Badger Trust's response to that epic pile of manure that was the Daily Telegraph's article: http://www.badger.org.uk/_Attachments/Resources/540_S4.pdf

posted 310 days ago Trevor Wilcox:

Alert: Fur supporter and pheasant shooter Elle Macperson and evil designer Julien MacDonald, the man who said "People who don't like fur can P*ss off" and "F*ck the animals" are now involved in judging and hosting Britain and Irelands Next Top Model on Sky Living. Needless to say I will not be watching this rubbish reality show or indeed anything on the unethical Sky Living channel again.

posted 310 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Sorry I meant 'balanced approach'.

posted 310 days ago Lisa Patterson:

My original question still stands unanswered: Do we switch from the humble cow as our major source of protein to rice and potatoes, consequently risking increasing our greenhouse gas emissions and doing further harm to the environment (which in turn, harms animals) in order to try and save some, or do we adapt a more valences approach?

posted 310 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Hi Steve! I know soy beans don't create flatulence, the other beans do, though. And yes, I am aware that cows do produce a very high amount of Greenhouse Gasses. However, rice paddies and potato farming produce more (together). That is the problem. Plus rice and potatoes are not so much the staples they used to be. Cows don't feed people directly? How? Because they have to be slaughtered? Rice and potatoes have to be washed free of all the pesticides that have been used before they are eaten, too. They take a detour before they wind up on someone's plate too. Is it because they have to eat feed before they can be eaten? Well, so do plants. 'Ethical omnivorism' is about balance. Everything in moderation.

posted 310 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

My hat is off to the chairman of Badger Trust - just read the letter to The Telegraph and he, David Williams, has a way with words. He always manage to keep it short and still it says it all.

I applaud you David Williams:)

posted 310 days ago Dom:

Hello!

Just to say a thanks to Newt for sticking up for me over yonder. Thanks for sticking your neck out, much appreciated.

Best

Dom

If any of you can help with the hedgehogs please look at my thread. 13 years before possible extinction. Do I need to say more?

posted 310 days ago StevenAult:

Lisa, I don't find that soya beans have the same effect as baked beans in that regard! Cows emit more far more methane than humans anyway. They have 4 stomachs as you know. As regards potatoes and rice, well, they are staple crops, we need to grow them to live. It's about feeding people directly instead of wasting the food we grow on producing livestock. That's the key to a more sustainable existence. The 'ethical omnivore' phrase seems dubious to me. It reminds me of 'humane killing'. There are circumstances where both concepts may exist. To me, the only ethical situation where I would consume meat is if I was lost in a forest and had no choice but to kill a boar or dear in order to feed starving people.    

posted 310 days ago Raindance:

LOL.  I'm here twice - wi-fi on the train playing tricks with me and pretending that I have clicked "share".  I hope that the Moderators will kindly delete the extra post and this one, too.  Thank you very much.  

posted 310 days ago Raindance:

Thank you, Save-Me HQ, for posting the Badger Trust press release. A rather shameful stance for the Government to take, but unsurprising. 

posted 310 days ago Raindance:

Thank you, Save-Me HQ, for posting the Badger Trust press release. A rather shameful stance for the Government to take, but unsurprising. 

posted 310 days ago Raindance:

Newt, I don't think many people here would regard you as an outsider.  A couple of posts and you're done for - you're part of the family.  LOL.  

Looking back over the things that have been posted since you joined us, although I can't really speak for any individual here, I would like to think that we have welcomed you, and been curious and interested to read what you have to say. In my experience, people who campaign for better treatment for animals are generally not loopy, hemp sandal wearing, flaxseed eating hippies nor are they bunny-huggers.  On the contrary, you will find that they are deep-thinking, committed, generous and kind people.  There are people here from all walks of life, many very highly educated or talented, and well-respected professionals in their chosen fields.   We may not boast about what we do, but that's just because it isn't relevant here and in any case some of us need to keep a low profile for the sake of our professional and domestic lives.  

Tofu is indeed a very old food, dating roughly from the second Century BC.  I have eaten it in Chinese dishes and it certainly wasn't dressed up to taste or look like meat.  I haven't tried it in any other form. Quorn is something else.  That's made from a type of fungus.  Some Quorn things are more palatable than others, but I tend to steer clear of fake meat.  There are plenty of other dishes to choose from that are entirely vegetarian or even vegan, and almost every type of dish has a vegetarian/vegan (and no fake meat) alternative.  

As for Cristina Odone and her article ... she should be ashamed to write such a lazy piece, which just seems to repeat things written by other people.  She is a well-known journalist, particularly from her days with the Catholic Herald, and has carved out a certain reputation for herself.  The piece in The Telegraph does her considerable talents no justice.  

posted 310 days ago Dom:

Hey Newt, Tofu, not a fan myself, alot is how it's cooked. But it's a really old food, starting back in Greece , Japan or China. Bit like sushi and saki. Not to my taste but ancient, older than many western foods. Interesting tid bit but Japan hardly use milk , it is more common place now.but due to fast food chains. I think u r thinking of quorn? Some of it is real nice, like the sausages, some taste like crisp flavours. Mindyou without all the fat. I have to say Newt, going veggie was far easier than I thought, Most curries and chillies we just use veg. Each to their own though.

posted 310 days ago Newt:

Oh sorry guys, just feeling sorry for myself! Pathetic. I'd feel better if it wasn't so one sided!

As for enjoying it, that isn't quite the word I'd use Steve, it's like seeing a car crash, you know you shouldn't look, you don't want to look, everything inside tells you not to look, but you just have to take a peek and OH MY GOD!

I don't mean this to sound patronising Steve, but of everyone here, your comments often make the most sense...I hate you! Joke, I didn't mean that, but I'm growing a certain admiration for you...that doesn't mean I agree with you, but I can understand your logic!

On the soya thing in livestock feeds, did you know that the Soil Association insist on GM free certification of any animal feed component, as a consequence, there is almost no soya (compared to other feeds) in most organic feeds. They tend to replace that ingredient with linseed cake and OSR cake, both biproducts of cold pressing oils from plant sources. Don't know if those components can be eaten by man, can they?

On the subject of soya beans (these are genuine questions that I've always wanted to ask) that's what they use for tofu (is that right? Have I spelt it right?) bean curds? What's the point? I mean why flavour tofu to taste a bit like meat? What are those flavourings made from? Do you actually like tofu? What little I have had, and yes I am totally ignorant on this subject, but it was horrible, how can you look forward to it?

posted 310 days ago StevenAult:

I don't blame farmers at all for the wildlife/environmental problems. I blame consumer demand. Farmers are only providing what consumers want. Farmers will adapt to market changes when they happen. I think you're a responsible farmer and I enjoy your input here.

posted 311 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Ok Newt, I'm courious now. What kind of broad generalisations has been made on here and what attacks have we made?? As Steven, I don't understand. I thought we'd kind of embraced you, people like you, your stories, your reality and had been given you a whole lot of support. Not all of us but many. I really like to know what it is that upsets you - when we're talking about farming usually it means = factory farming, industrial farming. You know that.

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

Newt, I don't understand why you keep making little comments about how you're treated here. Who's calling you an evil farmer? If any of us visited a hunting or farming website and expressed our views, we'd receive so much hate we'd be out the door in seconds. I think as a small farmer, you've received a lot of support and sympathy here. Don't know why you feel that way. You would'nt still be here if you did'nt enjoy it.

posted 311 days ago Newt:

Mark

I've read that article. She is trying to provoke a response, that's what journalists do.

What she totally fails to get, is that this is not about farmers versus the bunny-huggers (although I'm starting to feel that to be the case here and no matter what I say, I will always be an evil farmer) it is about public health.

If it wre just about protecting farmers, no one would support us. Farmer baiting is a popular and perfectly legitimate blood sport apparently, everyone does it. I suspect that by putting it in these terms, this woman is doing it too.

But carry on, I can't stop you.

If people made the kind of broad generalisations I read here every day about a group because of their skin colour, or religeon That would be racist. If they did it by gender - sexist. You can't generalise about people because of ability or disability, weight height or in any other way. But attack a farmer and its fassionable. That's what she is up to here.

Carry on...

posted 311 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Mark, clearly she doesn't know the extent of the whole situation, perhaps we should invite her on here.

Newt, yeah I've read about two men confessing they made crops circle en masse, every friday after a night on a pub, they took their tools and got started, creating beautiful, and through the years, more comlicated patterns in the fields. Sure thing (not being sarcastic at all) Some say 80% are man made and for the rest - still a puzzle, some are even made below water. Photo manipulation, man-made, aliens (as you say), fairies, magnetism, Plasma Vortex or mother earth who knows - they're still beautiful. It's not 'why' it's 'wow'. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southampton/features/cropcircles/cropcircles_chat.shtml

Back on topic, I've found these useful and informative Q and A to bovine tb in cattle and badgers on Badger Trust's homepage.

http://www.badgertrust.org.uk/_Attachments/Resources/534_S4.pdf 

posted 311 days ago mark williams:

Run for your life, the black queen is on the march. No fox badger or bunny is safe from this predator.

Take a look at this article by Cristina Odone. Then perhaps tell her, what bunny-huggers think about it. 

A link from the soap box.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/8629157/A-farmers-livelihood-before-a-badgers-life.html

posted 311 days ago Newt:

Morning all,

Raindance,

I'm sorry, I stand corrected, very interesting.

Steve,

I notice that you very neatly avoided the question that we both know was the important one. It is fairly clear to me that you do want to see the end of all livestock farming - I don't like the idea, obviously - but I can see the point of view.

But some of these things are not as black and white as you seem to think that's all I'm saying.

Betina,

A couple of years ago two guys came forward and confessed to being responsible for starting the whole crop circle thing. I can't remember their names, but they  may have written a book about it. Anyway, with the farmer's permission this time, they showed a documentary team how they made one of the most complex of patterns.

They entered the field walking up the tramlines, then with nothing more than a broom handles with ropes and strings, they set about flattening the corn, starting at a central point, standing on one end of the handle, then stomping it down and rotating it. Everything else was predetermined on graph paper and measured from the central point using strings.

But like all magic tricks, one doesn't really want to know the truth behind how it is done, does one?

Kind of spoils the whole thing. I think Steve's explanation that it's aliens is much more apealing, if somewhat romantic - you know they fly across thousands of light years of space, undetected and draw pretty patterns in the corn, then fly away again. Communication in wheat art.

Take care,

Newt

PS You should all give blood if you are able - it is very important - don't worry about iron in your blood, they will test that before they allow you to and tell you if it is appropriate or not. The main thing that would prevent your blood being taken is however sexual activity. They are really worried about the passing on or potential passing on of AIDS, and so will not take blood from gay men or those who take drugs or have had sex with anyone who has sex for money. (When I have finished answering the check list which is very private I hasten to add, I always feel that I must be a very boring person to have answered no to all their questions!)

It doesn't hurt very much at all and is very important and rewarding. Join the organ donar register too. When my father died it was his wish that they used as many of his organs as they could, saddly (bad) lifestyle choices (he was an alcoholic) meant that some major ones were useless. Nothing replaces the loss of a loved one, but it was kind of satisfying to learn that 7 people in this world had organs of his that changed their lives for the better. Dramatically. 

As the pure, clean, healthy people that you all seem to be, your bodies and blood should be worth their weight in gold!

posted 311 days ago Lisa Patterson:

I am sorry I forgot to include nuts in my previous post. I love nuts myself and they are a great low-emission source of protein too.

However I just hope that the old saying 'you are what you eat' does not apply with them! Lol!

posted 311 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Hello. I have been reading the comments here about sustainability and thought that I'd add my two cents.There is another question which I think has only been lightly touched on - the effect of any changes in farming on Greenhouse Gas Emissions. We all know that the cow is a major producer of Greenhouse Gasses. It would be natural and understandable to say 'well... If we reduce the number of cows, then we will reduce the amount of Greenhouse Gasses in the atmoshere'. I'm afraid that is not necessarily so. Take a look here:

http://askmorenow.com.au/EnvImpactsOfAnimalAgri_Part2.pdf

These figures show that in order to really make a difference with Greenhouse Gas Emissions we would have to reduce the amount of potatoes and rice that we farm, as well. Now soy (and in fact, most other beans too) does really well. It has a high protein yield, and is low on emissions, which is good. However most people I know (even vegetarians) would rather cut their own legs off than drink soy milk (myself, I cannot stand the taste. Yuck!) and beans have that... other problem that is coincidentally extremely similar to how cows contribute to the Greenhouse Effect. That leaves as the biggest source of protein for vegetarians, potatoes followed by rice. Both of those out together outstrip beef as the major cause of Greenhouse Gas Emissions. This raises a conundrum. If we stop farming beef and switch to 'green' (pun intended) sources of protein, then we could be at least causing as much harm to animals in the long run as what we are trying to prevent by creating irreversable environmental change that other animals may struggle to adapt to.

My question is this: what do we do?

Myself, I am what is called an 'ethical omnivore'. I eat meat and dairy, but I limit the amounts that I eat and I am careful only to buy from certain producers that practise ethical ways of raising and slaughtering their animals. I think it's a happy medium. If we can reduce both the number of cattle we consume and potatoes and rice (and who knows? Maybe even putting up with a little bit of the urge to cut your own legs off and have a bit more soy or putting up with flatulence) I think we could really make a good difference for all involved.

For more on ethical omnivorism, see here:

http://www.livingcrueltyfree.com/2008/03/12/how-to-become-a-humane-omnivore/

posted 311 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Ha ha Steven, but please do remember it was your words not mine.

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

The only logical explanation for crop circles Betina is aliens.

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

I've provided this link before, but it's so good I'm doing it again.

http://www.earthsave.org/environment.htm

posted 311 days ago Raindance:

Newt, There is a Canadian company, Iogen Corporation, which is into biotechnology, including cellulosic ethanol.  Here's their website:

http://www.iogen.ca/cellulosic_ethanol/what_is_ethanol/index.html

It's very interesting. 

posted 311 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

If I may be a little fresh here. About wheat, perhaps we should reduce it by half, you see it's not even particularly healthy, the old sorts of wheat and other kinds are much better.... but of course, there will always be straw. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw

On acid Steven... not really my style and you know that? You could think I were on something when I mentioned crop circle - but no, I'm serious, not a member of any crop circle club, but still. Did you look at my links? What you think? And how do you make a crop circle with such perfect forms and precise measures on rugged terrain?

On soya. YES - so nice with an alternative, there's rice milk too. It's great we learn using these products and reducing our dairy products. Milk and eggs are a bit overestimated. Did you know you can make pancakes without eggs and milk, hah? They taste normal!

posted 311 days ago mark williams:

Do something for long enough it becomes the norm, but it doesn't mean there isn't another way. 

Have you read this. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2011/mar/08/eco-farming-double-food-output

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

We may have to use treated human fertiliser Newt. Not a good advert for a vegan lifestyle I know but that's what they used to use. Not that different from animal waster really. Who's up for that?

posted 311 days ago Dom:

Enjoyed the sheep info Newt.

Underratted beasts and I didnt know that about the under coat. Big Horns! have we any over here, that skull bashing thing is immense. Are they sheep or goats?

Personally I would 'nt want a stop to livestock breeding or farming, for me part of the joy of the countryside is the live stock. And I don't personally think it is wrong to eat meat, look at the Native Americans, and so forth. I guess maybe it is the quantity of meat. 

You know the sort of cheap meat I would call 'filler food',cheap stuff,fast food, to me seems a bit pointless for a pig to die so I can absently munch my way through a ham sarnie on a lunch hour.

As for vegans....pass... dunno, Im only veggie. Fish went out the window before I turned full veggie because of the threat of a lifeless ocean, that scares the £@$% out of me.

truth be told I have never given blood at any stage, if you supplement the iron from meat with iron from veg I don't see a problem. You have to forgive me here Newt Im a little rusty on food,but meat iron is quicker to break down than veg iron but thats it I think??????

Anyone with a bit more food knowledge care to clarify?

As for organic systems,wheat and the like, you have all lost me long ago. Sorry

Good night all:-)

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

if veggies can give blood, then why not vegans? So many iron rich fruit and veg. I eat spinach, sprouts, broccoli, raisins, dried apricots and dates. All super foods. Of course vegans can give blood. I should do it really. Apparently meat eaters only consume around 15-20% of iron from meat. Did you know that? Thanks for sheep answer.

posted 311 days ago Newt:

One more question; I give blood regularly and never have any side affects, is it true that vegans can't give blood? Is that the iron thing? Do any of you give blood?

posted 311 days ago Newt:

Raindance,

Good answer, well done, but you missed one; a lot of straw is now being burnt to generate electricity. This burning is considered to be carbon neutral.

The production of ethanol however is I think mainly done with the seed.

Okay, so explain this to me then, in organic systems, cereal production is almost impossible without animal fertilisers, certainly modern verieties of corn. So to produce wheat without livestock would require large quantities of chemical fertilisers. Chemical fertilisers are currently very carbon hungry to produce. If the straw is a biproduct, as such, burning it is considered neutral - so all that carbon goes into producing what 5% of the biomass - the seed. Is that a good use of fossil fuels?

posted 311 days ago Newt:

Steve,

To be honest you made a really good point, I was just being argumentative. Sorry.

Sheep; the domestic sheep is Ovis aries it is a combination of species, Ovis musimon being the predominant species, that's the mouflon. There are no "wild" indigenous sheep in the UK left, but the Soay sometimes also known as the St Kilda are modern variants of the first sheep brought to the UK by the peoples of Scapa and Stonehendge - as such they are as close to Ovis musimon as it possible to be. The Soay is though a feral sheep and on their native islands around St Kilda they run as wild sheep. If you check them out on the internet, you will observe that their wool is very short and moults naturally. Wool is actually the undercoat and in wild species it is covered by hair, guard hair. This has been bred out of modern breeds, but all the older wilder breeds exhibit coarser outer hair.

The Rare Breeds Survival Trust actively conserve these older breeds as they believe in the genetic biodiversity that they have. Wildlife trusts often work closely with the RBST to use these ancient breeds in conservation grazing of wildlife habitats.

We also have "wild" goats in the Uk. These are again usually feral domestic goats that have turned ferral. One such breed is the Baggot. Once agan these wild goats can survive with out interference from man. Once again they are used as conservation grazers. However, goats are not good candidates for that job as they destroy trees - unless of course that is what is wanted ( which sometimes it is if the "wrong" trees or vegetation inhabit an environment and the native fauna or flora require a more diverse habitat.

There you go Steve, as comprehensive answer as I dare give.

Now I would like you to answer one for me; would it be fair of me to say that your wish list would include the total shut down of all livestock farming?

posted 311 days ago Dom:

I see lots of snakes here Steve, usually slithering off the pathway. You don't see them until they move and they really do move. As fast as any mammal, I've seen.

We also have adders,  but not seen any. Time to ammend that maybe this weekend and go and see what I can find

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

Newt, help me out. Do we still have wild sheep in parts of the UK?

posted 311 days ago StevenAult:

70% of all rainforest destruction in the Amazon is caused by cattle ranching. Plus the animal agriculture. I think soya beans are brilliant and very versatile. Meat eaters actually consume far more soya beans than veggies/vegans. Everything destroys the environment to some degree, we have to choose the least harmful option and protect the most important areas. Look for soya milk which is produced in the EU.

 Snakes are brilliant Newt, but if a Rattlesnake came into my bedroom, I would'nt exactly be loving it. See many snakes? I've never seen one in the wild unfortunately. Apparently we have three types: Adder, Smooth snake, grass snake. I do love (real) Newts by the way. Used to have them in my pond.

Crop circles Betina? Have you been at the acid again?

posted 311 days ago Raindance:

I have some concerns about soya production - whether it is GM and whether it harms the environment. If it leads to deforestation, especially of the Amazon Rainforest, then we should be concerned.

What to do with wheat straw? Apart from making Hats (which I love), there are many uses to which one might put wheat plants: ethanol production, geotextiles, filters, structural composites, non-structural composites, moulded products, packaging, in combinations with other materials such as plastics.  And Hats.

I love crop circles. They seem quite mysterious, although some people have, in the past, owned up to making them as a prank. Elaborate joke or not, they are often very beautiful, particularly the more intricate ones.

posted 311 days ago Newt:

Ah soya! GM soya, lovelly! Did you know that a honey bee can fly 2 miles with pollen, GM or not and that they ofetn come in direct contact with other bees that can routinely fly 2 miles in the opposite direction with exchanged pollen? Also 40 % of all US soya is now GM? Very quickly these genes are going to become ubiquitous, doesn't that worry you?

Oh Steve, you mean if they are not furry then you don't like them? Have you never handled a beautiful snake? They are not slimy at all as you would expect but soft and rather nice. Biodiversity is very important, I'm a bit disapointed in you, I thought you were better than that! Just teasing but you get my point.

I'm currious, on a wheat plant, the only bit that we can eat is the seed, in your ideal world, what would you do with the rest of the plant?

posted 312 days ago Brettley:

They are amazing Betina. I've always been fascinated by them.

posted 312 days ago StevenAult:

Soya milk has to be more sustainable than dairy. It can't really fail to be. 80% of all soya beans are fed to livestock. It's a good stat to be armed with. I love soya milk, but I wish we could grow soya beans in the UK though.

Is it just me who is getting really sick of these pathetic 'Wind in the Willows' references in the press? They're trying to portray us as soft in the head 'animal lovers'. It's the ridiculous 'anthropomorphic' label again. The truth is, I don't love all 'animals' at all, there are millions of species, some of which are bloody horrible, like scorpions and snakes. But that misses the point. It's about respecting their existence, managing conflicts when they arise. Some people just don't get it do they?

posted 312 days ago mark williams:

morning all

This is one reason we don't need so many dairy cattle 

Once soya was seen as a drink for those with allergies or vegetarians but it seems its becoming fashionable. Starbucks now have it on the menu.

I quote:

Soya is now regularly bought by over 4 million of Britain's 26 million households compared to 3.4 million in 2006.Sales of refrigerated soy milk continue to accelerate, and industry experts see nothing that will impede the rapid growth—at least 20 percent per year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/8500956/Soya-milk-goes-mainstream-as-Starbucks-sells-soya-frappuccino.html

This is also interesting. I hope it will be though sustainable means?

http://www.newhope.com/naturalcategorybuyer/ncb_backs/Spring_02/soy.cfm

posted 313 days ago Dom:

They are strange things

posted 313 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

It's crop circle season, you have a lot over there, in the area of Stonehenge. Have you ever thought about them for real, not just a laugh and roll of the eyes. They are beautiful, mysterious and breathtaking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TykJRFZT35g&feature=player_embedded

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqJqp7-BuJI&feature=player_embedded

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1upFc7FDhH8&feature=player_embedded

You think somebody's trying to tell us something? ;)

posted 313 days ago StevenAult:

Very dignified performance on The One Show Brian. Looked cool too. Enjoy the peas and wine?

posted 313 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Hi Newt! You mentioned a massive cull. What's being culled, the cows?

posted 314 days ago Newt:

As for government stepping in, There are thousands of people working for Defra on a daily basis, dreaming up daft rules like this one, the one that you are both complaining about. They change these rules on a week by week basis. Ignorance is no defence either because at least once a month and usually every week we get a new set of guidance on what we MUST do.

I spend about hours trying to work out what they telling me! Do I get paid for this? Does it help?

To survive in this industry you have to be very flexible and realistic.

posted 314 days ago Newt:

45,000 cows a year culled. Hundreds of thousands tested. Regular inspections form Animal Health, trading standards, defra appointed inspectors, field mapping exercises, boundary checks; not to mention standards checks from the red tractor mark, supermarkets and people like the soil association. Then there are passports - anyone in the UK can have children and take them where they like as they like, but if you have cattle you have to be registered and follow the rules - these passports come with a rule book of several hundred pages. Every moment of every animal is recorded by the BCMS. Any movemnet onto a farm carries a six day standstill. Every tank of milk is tested before it leaves the farm. Every bovine going for slaughter (even those unfit for human consumption) has to clean and fit. Hundreds of farmers every year and hurt or seriously injured clipping muck of cattle before they can be sold....

The list is endless.

How would any of this be possible if farmers said "No"?

posted 314 days ago Newt:

Mark

I agree, but who is stuck in their ways?

Farmers keep cooperating (whether you want to believe it or not) and I am confident that they will cooperate with you, but you have to cooperate back. What concessions have yo made here?

I want to help you and you have some good ideas and I think we could do something with them. But please don't tell everyone else to compromise and then flattly refuse yourselves!

posted 314 days ago mark williams:

Sorry betina you posted before i had a chance to

But it’s interesting that we can see the simple errors in the plans of those that want to kill badgers, but others seem stuck in their ways.

posted 314 days ago mark williams:

Morning everyone,

non cooperation that’s the biggest spanner in the works for any industry, one we can’t leave unchanged. Where would we be now if all industry was left to do what they wanted? It is time then that the Government took steps, looked at the real issues in farming.

Waste management as we have found out is a real grey area, very hit and miss. This to me seems the biggest bTB reservoir quite literally in the environment to date.

Just think then, we could practically wipe out all badgers from the wild none living with bTB. However Mr Farmer comes along with his tank of industrial waste and spays this toxic mix all around the environment. What then for one last remaining badger that happend to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, does this animal not face a danger of reification from bTB?

We need a fence on the cliff before any more of our badgers takes a tumble! Where is the government on this?

posted 314 days ago Newt:

I totally agree Betina.

But so what? What I think doesn't really matter does it?

What do I have here for the NFU? They'll be just laughing at all this right now. All I have is more work, more cost, some vague promise to help small farmers (but coming from a group of vegans, sorry but that means nothing, you're not even in their market) and some vague promise of help from the EU.

Anyone with any experience of Defra know exactly what that means - nothing, nout, zip, zilch.

You all seem to think we've got all the time in the world to dream up ever more complex and expensive ways of making farmers lives more difficult. Just how much time do you think you have?

We are now a matter of a few hours away from the announcement of a substantial cull.

Why do farmers need you lot to tell them what to do - sorry but that's the reality.

What compromises have you made?

You could have been part of the answer, part of the desicion making process, but that would mean agreeing to a partial cull. But that's against your priciples.

Now you're looking at watching from the side lines as the pro hunt lobby slaughter evrything that moves.

Is that what you want?

Personnally I was hoping for something that might make a selective cull possible, but time is ticking away and I've failed to protect the badgers here at all.

I know you are all going to be angry by these words, but the only people responsible are yourselves, you could have helped me, but you're all too busy trying to prove me wrong...You won't even take responsibility for your own actions, why should farmers listen to you?

Oh well, I tried...There are no hard feelings on my side,

Newt

posted 314 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Take action: write to the Prime Minister asking him to 'Back off Badgers!'

http://e-activist.com/ea-action/action?ea.client.id=143&ea.campaign.id=11189

posted 314 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Well Newt, that was my point of posting it to be begin with. That there might be a risk of surviving btb bacteria when pouring contaminated slurry on the field into the ground. Perhaps UV kills it but how can we know for sure it's getting 100% netrualised? Being in a hot wet tank the bacteria spreads to all slurry in it, that's what I think.

Let's say you didn't do it at all, but seperated waste from reactor cows, put it in a seperate tank and drove it somewhere else and had it neutrualise, used it for something not that's not this hazardous, who knows if the numbers of infected badgers would decrease? Isn't the current procedure like playing russian roulette?

posted 314 days ago Newt:

Mark

I read this last night and was impressed, of course to build all this from scratch would be very expensive, which would probably kill it dead in the water, however, much of what you describe already exists on farms that use the slurry system. The tank for example can be an existing slurry tanker. The macerator, well some farms use them already, there are also solid seperators etc. Of course the key part, the UV system would have to be adapted and for the reasons that I have already stated, existing water purification units would not work.

However, you do realise don't you that probably 99% of dairy farmers are not going to do any of this or cooperate with anyone trying to impose any of this on them?

And who could blame them? Because you are all still avoiding the real problem here and that is that bTB is already in the badger population.

How will any of this sort that problem out?

posted 314 days ago StevenAult:

Brian's on the 'one show' tomorrow, is that right? Will look out for that. Just read 'What are we doing in space' on the soapbox. Thought it was great. Nice one Bri.

posted 314 days ago mark williams:

One problem I can think of with this type of machine is if the waste is dry to begin with. So it may need to be primed before use with a few litres of water. Also the waste from the UV light may need to pas across the macerator pump before it re-enters the tank to keep everything moving. If i was home on my computer i'd load up solid works or auto cad and draw something, perhaps next week if the interest is still there.

posted 314 days ago mark williams:

But talking about waste and sewage it isn’t just farms that produce it, we all do. Perhaps we can all do something to reduce it a little? have a read.

http://www.sas.org.uk/campaigns/toxics-2/

posted 314 days ago mark williams:

Hi newt, Hi all

I liked the solar still made with the soda can and plastic bottle, if 2012 does turn out to be a bad year if may come in handy.

For the slurry problem I thought about what you said and it will not be an easy problem. But here are my first thoughts. What about a tank with a capacity of 500 litres capacity to give it a size. On top of this tank would be a funnel with lid. At the bottom of the funnel between funnel and tank would be a macerator pump. The macerator’s job would be to reduce the size of waste for the next part of the process.

The next stage would be for the waste to be pumped out of the tank, through an ultra violet light block, through a diverter valve, then passed back in to the tank again, ready for it’s next circuit. After a timed period the diverter valve would operate allowing the waste to then be pumped into the main tank on the farm containing the slurry.

The 500liter tank would be fitted with internal baffles to keep the liquid from lying in stagnated areas and to keep it all free flowing.

The light block itself would be made from clear plastic, made in two parts, machine faced, a channelled matrix machined to one face on each part and the assembly then would be bolted together. To keep maintenance to a minimum the UV lights would be bonded to the plastic halves.

The whole unit could be wheeled around a farm where it was needed or a larger unit could have a fixed position next to the main slurry tank.

I see a small unit working from 240 volt single phase 13 amp outlet.

posted 314 days ago Dom:

I think it's top notch, keep it coming. 

Newt you asked about what people do. Well I work (job1) for a large corporation which does what the law requires, so is it very green? Probbaly not as what the law requires is far from enough.

However I do get to work with charities and raise awareness on animal issues daily.

Also i got to speak with Robert plant yesterday-he's a really nice bloke. Lives my way don't you know :-)

Thats about as much as I can devulge right now. Im always nagging them about this that and the other green issue wise, but like any largish corporation the gears move slow.

Job 2 is completely me alone so my carbon footprint is very low-but then so are my earnings from it-lol!

Keep the ideas flowing, see bridges can be crossed, if we can get a man on the moon then we can do this.

Well done all. Makes my ideas look .....well rubbish really-haha keep the ideas coming and if i can help I will.

posted 314 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Totally of topic, sorry, but I have to say that one of my favorite movies are back, with improved sound and picture quality -  don't know if it's the right words.

Back to the future! That's what I'm talking about. It's back in the cinemas (in Denmark) You probably seen it already in UK. Can't wait until 28 th of july but I wish they'd made it in 3D! Hope it's ok posting this:)

posted 314 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, Innovation is good:) and exciting... keep it coming. I can't do it, but it's very exciting to read what you guy's think:) Love it!

posted 314 days ago Newt:

Take a look at this

http://www.solarcooking.org/plans/

Solar stills are different, they cause dirty water to evaporate, and collect the evaporated water as clean drinking water - might still be a place for the technology here though. Why transport dirty water about spreading it? Evaporate off the water (recycle) and use the muck for fertilizer.

Sorry about the spelling, my brain runs faster than my fingers and I keep missing letters or adding letters or whole words. What can I say, I'm an idiot!

For stills try

http://www.solaqua.com/solstilbas.html

posted 314 days ago Newt:

Just a thought Mark, solar stills? In Africa aid groups have developed a solar cooking method, basically if memory serves, a concave parabolic mirror, made out of mirrored plastic reflects and concentrates the sun's rays onto a cooking pot suspended on a stand at the focal point. The whole thing is made out of cardboard boxes (but we couls adapt it to metal) Apparently you can boil a pot of water very quickly.

Needs work; but a pipe could feed slurry onto a metal plate at the focal point of a concave mirror. The slurry would flatten out across the plate and drop into a pit below for pumping back into the tank. Solar rays from the sun would cook and radiate with ultraviolet light the slurry and kill all pathogens. Simple, cheap, affective ? the problem would be regulating the flow to match the sun and getting the angle right, as the mirror would want to face up and the plate down, reflective lens perhaps?

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Mark,

This is a really good idea. But not without problems. My knowledge of UV filtration is based on my years as a fish farmer and yes it may well be possible to design something along the lines that you suggest, but in pond water being filtered, light inhibition caused by sediment or algal blooms can really affect the performance of the device. Usually the water has to be fairly clear to allow the UV filter to work properly - this is certainly true of E coli control in drinking water. Slurry of course is the exact opposite. Perhaps pipes are the wrong structure, perhaps a couple of flat glass plates that split the column of fluid into a fine sheet. The problem here would be all the straw and undigested plant fibres clogging it up. Slurry is actually more of a fluid solid if you get my meaning...But you may have something, it just needs thinking.

Personally I think the best solution for slurry would be anaerobic digestion - it would kill the bacteria, remove toxic polluting gasses, provide extra income in the generation of electricity, reducing green house emissions and give a useful more usable fertilizer. The problem, just like everything else is the cost.

Mark's idea would be considerably cheaper.

Betina and Raindance

Most slurry is collected while cattle are housed in winter. In autumn much of it is spread on grazing land intended for use the following spring - by which time it has washed in to the soli and there are no lasting toxic affects.

Later in the winter it is spread on silage ground and in spring this stops and the tank is left partially full until after the first cut. Once again, all the slurry has been used up and absorbed long before the grass is cut. After it is cut an apllication may be spread on silage ground that didn't get any in winter or is short of nutrients. Again it is gone into the soil in a matter of a week or two, but the grass is not cut until six weeks later.

I know that all this sounds disgusting, but it really isn't that bad, it is the ultimate in natural recycling and works very well.

One last point, not all farms use this technique. We don't. We don't keep slurry separate at all. Our cattle are all lose housed in straw yards, the straw and muck builds up into a deep warm mattress that the cows and calves compress into quite a dry bed. It can be -10 C here but in the cow shed, it is often 15 c to 20 c just by the heat of the cows and the composting bedding. But then we don't milk either so that's not a problem either. I know that this will disgust many of you, but the cows are very comfortable, there is no lameness in our herd and they seem very calm and content to me.

We stack the muck for 12 months and turn it until it is a rich black compost and then spread the material on fields in spring, that are intended for hay making, or in the autumn when the cows come in on hay meadows or pasture. Sheep only graze this land when the compost has washed into the soil. being more solid this takes three or four weeks usually.

Personally I think that this is a far more environmentally and welfare friendly system. If it were used on dairy farms, there would be nothing to stop reactor milk being spread on the compost heap (after it has been mucked out) and leaving it for twelve months. It would be relatively cheap and easy to fence off such a heap and keep badgers out. The bacterium is only thought to live for 4 to 6 months anyway, but the high temperatures reached by the proper composting of manure, would kill it dead in hours anyway. Cheap, simple, wildlife freindly, nutrient conserving and environmentally sound. Perfact, what else can I say?

If you wanted a campaign, then go for loose straw housing rather than cubicles and slurry scrapers. The problem for the dairy boys though is that cows on loose straw tend to lie in their own muck and get filthy, making it hard to keep the milk clean. Straw yards are far better for beef herds. More hygenic, less mastitus (although that has not proved a problem in my herd but then they produce milk in the quantities that dairy cows do).

Hope this makes sense.

Newt

posted 315 days ago Raindance:

Good morning,.

The way I read it, Betina, the slurry is poured on land that isn't being used by livestock and therefore won't be a hazard as long as the ground continues not being used for a certain time.  Newt can explain how you rotate feeding grounds. The concern I would have is how you would police such a system - what would be the safeguards to ensure farmers don't cut corners, and how much spare land and for how long to ensure that cattle are not grazed on land that is marked as being out of use?  Drawings, please. 

Whatever solution is imagined, success all comes down to funding.  Bullets are relatively cheap, as are licenses.  How can we persuade our Government, especially during such difficult times (globally, not just domestically) to provide adequate funding for a comprehensive approach to this problem?  That's a rhetorical question, by the way.  The truth is that funding can be found when it is needed.  It takes strong political will to commit to a proper solution that, if not attended to properly, will dog us for years to come. 

Quite apart from the badger thing, I think that our whole approach to farming and prices for farm products needs to be restructured.  That's a discussion for another time. 

posted 315 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Morning everyone.

This is playing on my mind - about contaminated milk on fields or that is, the risk of it. Very good info from you Newt, OH yes the slurry, the cow pats from reactor cows. I havn't thought about that before. So the slurry tank is all one big btb baceria bomb on farms with high proportion of btb reactor cases. Can't be much UV light reaching such a tank.

Excuse me, you just don't pour or dig it onto AGRICULTURAL land. Milk, urine, muck and a certain part of that are full of btb bacteria - isn't this wonderland for this organism? I don't don't know what else you would be doing with it but most agricultural land is crops for animal feed. (In Denmark that's about 80 % of all crops). It just strikes me - cow pats on fields are not the only thing badgers get attracted to - it's the WHOLE field, the whole area that smells like 'dinner time'!

Then add its sense of smell which is 600-700 times as good as humans. For a hungry badger - agricultural land is wonderland too. I don''t like this at all. There's is far too many weak links in this, in my opinion. Mark, your solutions to neutralise slurry tank waste sounds like a good idea. I wish we could put pictures on, like to see a drawing of this solution (sorry mods, Mitch, I said this before and I know you'd put it on our wish list:-)

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

Morning Newt, Betina and everyone.

Very interesting and informative writing newt, i feel we are working together better. Betina has found some neutral ground for us to stand. A solution for the slurry tanks waste, would be to control the temperature to make sure that bacteria find it hard to multiply. make sure it is also agitated and pumped around the tank several times through a series of pipes that are transparent and run close to a bank of high intensity ultra violet lights before reentering the tank. This unit could be retrofitted to any bulk tank “i think” and if all the waste passed through it i don't see why it would not kill all the bacteria. This could be designed quite easily and the cost would not be prohibitive.

But a project to design a bulk tank with all these measures in place would be a worth while project. Perhaps we could all work on it? Perhaps a government grant for the work? i’d work on it and draw it up for nothing if it saved a cull.

Newt, i’m no longer anything to do with the armed forces i just commented on something from long ago when i had. This is where i met a family of badgers out for a walk and i was astonished at how tame and calm they were. There was dad in the front three little cubs and mom taking the rear. They walked right up to me checked me out and i put my hand out and in turn stroked them all. For me it was a totally surreal moment as i was brought up to see them as totally shy. Perhaps i was shown a glimpse of eden and i have been looking for more ever since. Out walking i have had other wild animals come up a fox made an appearance came close to me and let me stroke it another wow moment. Got a movie of that encounter. Perhaps animals are the best judge character after all? So you can see my perspective a little better now and why i cant eat meat and why i feel i must protect little ones like these from the easy murder of man.

posted 315 days ago Newt:

As for me asking the line of business that each of you are in, this is an entirely fair question! I am not asking anyone to say "I work for Fred Blogs and son LTD"!

Let us discuss industries or professions as Mark is doing with the armed forces.

And let us all be honest in this, by definition, we, the people here, are most likely to be some of the most environmentally aware!

This is good!

This is right!

We should all be discussing, as I hope you realise that I am trying to do, our own responsibilities with in our own businesses.

I really appreciate the fact that most of you have come to realise that small farmers are important in all this, but in truth, there are good and bad small farmers too and it would be fair to say that some big farms are more environmentally aware and considerste than some small farms.

So is it not true to say it is not the size or type of your business that is as important as how you work?

So come on, I was challenging you all, but I was trying to do it in a friendly and constructive way (which is not always how you deal with farming) lets examine some other businesses or occupations shall we?

What are you all trying to hide?

And let's not be so judgemental eh?

You can't change the world if you start with someone else and exclude yourself!

Come on!

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Hi all,

Listen the milk thing, again I repeat I am not here to defend defra, but think about it for a minute, perhaps you don't understand how this probably works (I say probably because I have no direct experience here and in truth I may be wrong, but give me a chance to put this into perspective).

Say, a farm like the one in Cumbria where they have 400 cows and apparently 100 reacted in a bTB test - this is an extremely high proportion and usually it would be only a few. What are they supposed to do? Stop milking altogether? That would would be very cruel and something that I would oppose to the last breath in my body. No they would still have to milk those reactors. But each cow has two eartags - by law and certainly this is checked at TB testing and you would face serious consequences if they didn't ALL have tags in them.

So the cows go into the milking parlour and each individual cluster (regardless of design or make or type) has the facility to remove that milk from the that cow, before it goes into the bulk tank - again this is essential by law. So the milk can be collected seperately from the bulk tank and dealt with seperately from the "clean" milk.

Then what would you do with it?

Well let us say for argument sake and ease of calculation, that each cow gave an average of 10 gallons a day - so 100 cows would give 1,000 gallons of milk. Too much I'm sure you would agree to do a lot with. But if you stick it in the slurry tank (on such a farm that might be 100,000 gallons) it would be dilluted 100:1 with muck, urine and rainwater collected from the yards. Okay that too would have a certain amount of infection in it anyway, because waste from those cows is also in it.

 But would adding the milk amke any significant difference to that level of infection? Perhaps over a long period of time, but those reactors should be taken in a few days (that's a whole seperate issue but Defra are not organising it very well and reactors can stay on farm for a month).

Anyway the point is - up until that point, putting reactor milk in the slurry tank does make some sense - its out of the way, its easy, its cheap.

Now the real issue it seems to me, perhaps you would agree, is what do you do with the slurry?

There are currently two systems, the first is to spread it onto the surface of the ground in fields not used by livestock and the second is to slit the surface of the grass, lift the turf and spread underground.

Usually it is the former that most upsets people as they assume that this method spreads TB, it smells and is "dirty". However you must realise that it is a thin coating, the TB bacteria are therefore exposed and spread thin. Ultra violet light would quickly kill them.

In contrast in a cow pat the TB bacteria are concentrated and protected from sunlight and a good place for the bacteria to survive.

Irronically, in my humble opinion, it could be that injecting TB contaminated slurry under the surface might give it longer to live, but it would still be very thinly spread and it would be slightly harder for badgers to pick up.

All this said, what are the alternatives?

How else would you dispose of 100,000 gallons of slurry? That would be an awful lot of wagons to take it away. Then what?

Having thought about it, one of the best treatments against the bacterium is UV light, but there would be a really good case for spreading it on fields with electris fencing to stop badgers getting to it. But where would the money come from for that when the main buyers the supermarkets are paying less for milk than it costs to produce it?

posted 315 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Sorry Mark, I only read that part on that link you gave me. Don't know anything else. It's probably cleaned in some way, also reactor means 'btb tested positive' meaning there's a risk of btb.

Still it sound unimaginable absurd.

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

Betina,

i have not heard of that before its unreal and a brilliant point to bring up don't let it go. is it raw milk is it not pasteurised first boiled or anything?

posted 315 days ago Raindance:

Well, Mark, I quite agree.  As I've said before, we seem to have money for things that don't make sense.  Spring closers make a lot of sense to me.  

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

Sorry thats should have said survive, and Raindance 250million would purchase a lot of spring closers for gates.

posted 315 days ago Raindance:

Newt, 

Like you, I prefer to keep my identity a little hidden here and that includes my job. I use my nickname here to keep safe.  I am very sorry, but I have, sadly, had more than my share of difficulties on the internet and - even more sadly - as a result of coming in here.  Still, if a lady sticks her head above the parapet then she must expect at least a few arrows to come her way.

Betina, that is disturbing information.  I am not sure what benefit is to be derived by disposing of reactor milk in that way.  Perhaps it might be so that it would be used in some way or that disposing of it in some other way might be difficult.  

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

Hello Raindance,

I've never once heard a Government say spend what you like were loaded. However if its true that english farming is in dire straits can we not afford to spend the money? what cost will we have if we have to import all foods because ours are not fit to eat? We soon find the money to go fight in Libya 250 million to date i have been told.

Newt, it would be your section commander hes on the ground with you. its only through working together as a team that you service. However you need to have a clear objective and know who the enemy are. Thats why i cant tell any more than that. WHO! where! what! what! what!

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Betina,

I tend to agree with you on this one, but this is a problem of scale really. By dilluting it with slurry (which strikes me as odd, why am I defending this?) you reduce the risk (really?) but spreading it on land is not such a daft idea, because ultraviolet light will kill the bacterium pretty quick, especially if spread thinly - does that make sense?

Look Defra are idiots what can I say?

Sorry got to go, Mrs Newt is back from a meeting and will require a cup of tea.

Good night all

Newt

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Steve,

Ah very clever, yes I do receive grants for environmental stewardship etc. And no it is never even half of the true cost.

You may be interested to learn that in 2005 Natural England did an audit of the scheme that I was then on and inspected my farm, surveying broad leaf plant distribution in permanent grass land as part of a random selection taken nationally of all farms on that scheme. Afterwards, the lady doing came up to me all excited and commented on a very rare species of raptor that she'd seen. I replied yes they always nest there. She then raved about the biodiversity on my farm and said she had never seen one like it for the number of species present.

No Steve, you are wrong, there can be a lot of wildlife on farms, but yes many species are in decline, but not just because of farmers.

But play along, what do you do for a living, what are you trying to hide? ;)

posted 315 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thank you very much Mark, it's really almost the opposite reading of what's been posted here. (Yes mostly by you Newt and thank you for a more honest input on the matter). So to put some balance into the debate, this is what it says on the defra-link from Mark:

"Bovine TB is a zoonosis, i.e. an infection that can be transmitted from affected animals to people, causing a condition very similar to human TB. However, the risk to people contracting TB from cattle in Great Britain is considered very low. At present, less than 1% of all confirmed cases of TB in humans are due to infection with Mycobacterium bovis (M. bovis). This view is supported by the Health Protection Agency, who identify the current risk posed by M. bovis to human health as negligible." [Defra]

I must say the page is not fun reading, though - some of it is quite disturbing:

"Disposal of milk. Under the Waste Management (England and Wales) Regulations 2006, which came into force on 15 May 2006, farmers wishing to dispose of reactor milk by mixing it with slurry and spreading it on agricultural land must first register for a waste management licence exemption (under ‘Exemption 47'). Farmers who have previously carried out this activity have until 15 May 2007 to register the exemption with the Environment Agency and must strictly follow the exemption conditions and limitations. To register an exemption is free of charge. If an exemption is not registered, the activity will require a full waste management licence, which is chargeable".

Sorry folk, here comes yet another stupid, silly, od, weird, irritating, crazy question from me. I just can't help it - that's the way I work. BUT why on earth would anyone wish mixing reactor milk with slurry and spread in on agricultural land? I don't care how much management and controls and registers their is to it - it's an idiotic and unnecessary thing to do. Pouring it right down on crops? Grazing fields too perhaps? I really try to understand the farming industry and their way of thinking but I honestly don't get it. Is it the no-waste mentality - "let's use it all, meat, bones, skin and oh let's not forget reactor milk"..... It may not be a risk to humans or the cattle but it's still sounds - what you call it? .... absurd.

Perhaps I got it all wrong but reactor means; tested positiv to btb, right? So there's a risk of btb here? Please let me know if I'm wrong about what I wrote in this post - in fact it would be wonderful if I am.  

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

Hello Newt,

So if what you say is true, that 1% risk is not acceptable to a Government, are they not obliged to help the farming community. Cant we all campaign then for better treatment of farmers and farms. 21 century farms in a 21 century world. And no i don't suggest factory farms for a minute.   

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Raindance

Yes of course it is a challenge, is there anything wrong in that or is it just farmers who we are here to challenge?

Didn't Brian say we should all "evaluate every action of all business interests in terms of how it will affect the planet as a whole, including our threatened livestock."?

Although I think you will find that the badger is anything but threatened.

I applaud you Raindance, but come on, play the game, what business is that? Broadly. Afterall I am trying to be open with you about what I am doing, the least you could do is return the favour! (This is supposed to be gentle teasing, but that might not come across too well, hope you understand, this isn't personal it's just business, ouch!)

posted 315 days ago StevenAult:

Did'nt know there was much wildlife on farms to be honest Newt. Many bird species are suffering huge declines. I know some farmers are awarded grants to set aside areas for conservation, but it does'nt pay for all farmers. Do you receive conservation grants Newt? If so, does it pay enough? Not sure how large music events affect local wildlife. Probably quite distressing for nesting birds. Not sure about the setup at Glasto. I'm not involved in any music events, although I do enjoy watching them on TV.

posted 315 days ago Raindance:

Badger barriers?  Just getting some people to close farm gates is hard enough, Mark. Sounds like another little path of thought to wander down.  Would it be physically feasible and practical?  Cost would be a big thing, and I wonder what funding is available in these difficult times.  

Newt, your question about our businesses and contributions to lessening environmental impact sounds like a challenge. The place where I work is fairly "green".  We recycle just about everything.  Equipment and furniture is bought to last, taken care of and repaired when necessary.  

It's the same at home.  We waste as little as possible whether it is clothing or food.  We recycle everything that we can, use "green" alternatives to everyday things, buy things that last, and live simply but well.  

posted 315 days ago Newt:

I think you will find that the NFU know this already, perhaps in more detail and depth than discussed here.

Mark tell what do you do for a living? You said you were in the forces - great - but what now?

And when you were in the forces, who was the best person to take orders from, the general with years of combat experience, the politician who was only interested in his/her own career or the armchair expert/baroom expert with no knowledge what so ever?

You know if your life depended on it?

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

If it is true that the NFU do look in on us it would be helpful to hear from them and to what they think about the suggestions made about the other measures discussed by us about the control bTB In Cattle.

I hear good things about adequate fencing, Badger barriers, Bio security in cattle sheds, Lighting and ventilation. I feel if a good case was put forward and a model was found, i think it would have a better chance of getting public support here and elsewhere. The government then would have to give the finance i feel the small farmer must have if we are to stand any long term chance on getting rid of this and other pathogense in farming.   

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Steve,

That's fine, if you measure the environmental impact just on saving energy. What about the wildlife who inhabit that farm? What benefit was it to them?

But if you are only an amateur, what do you do for a living - if you don't mind me asking?

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Yes Mark, Defra are probably correct on this (they are not always correct, trust me if you had to deal with some of the idiots at Defra that I have,,,but never mind). Remember that experiment that I tried to explain to you involving infected cattle and uninfected cattle kept in the same shed over winter? None of the uninfected ones contracted bTB from breathing in bacteria?

Okay, the pathology of bTB manifests itself in a different way in different species. In cattle it does not tend to infect the lungs as it would in people. Hence, as bites from cattle are unusual and we tend not to consume urine or faeces from cattle (sorry but it is relevant) the only ways of consuming infection would be through the consumption of raw milk or raw meat.

Many dairy farmers consume their own cows milk raw - but you aren't concerned about them are you? So the main risk would be the consumption of under cooked or raw meat - steak tartar for example. But health inspections at abatoirs are constantly looking for any sign of infection and removing it so once again there is little chance of infection getting into the food chain. Perhaps 1 % is fair.

If you are vegan this risk is much lower.

However, for the 1% this is not acceptable and government have an obligation to protect its citizens from any risk.

The ISG pointed out that of the known cases of bTB in humans in 2005, six were as a result of contact from humans who were already infected. Why? Because then the infection does spread to the lungs and air borne infection is high. The risk of picking up TB of any form is far more likely for people in closed spaces - classically on the underground - but any public transport would do as would offices, shops, theatres or cinemas or rock concerts in particular would be good. The atmosphere would be perfect in one of those.

However the greatest risk of all will be from pet dogs or cats that pick up the infection from badgers in the environment. there are several known cases here already, with vets and children playing in sand pits for example.

I'm repeating myself again - but then you are trying to avoid the reality that bTB is NOT A DISEASE OF COWS IT IS A DISEASE OF MAMMALS.

posted 315 days ago StevenAult:

Did'nt attend Glasto Newt, but I know acts like the Chemical Bro's and U2 used a lot of 'juice' that's for sure. There's a lot of stalls at Glasto educating people about sustainable living. A lot of charities are involved, environmental and humanitarian. If 100,000 people did'nt attend Glasto, they'd be at home on their computers and watching TV anyway. I reckon these events save resources. You'll be pleased to know I have'nt played any stadium gigs. I'm only amateur.

Steve

posted 315 days ago mark williams:

Hi Betina,

A snippet of information that can be found on the DEFRA web site said.

Human infection with M. bovis can also cause TB that is clinically and pathologically indistinguishable from that caused by M. tuberculosis. However, in developed countries TB in humans arises principally from infection with M. tuberculosis, which is generally transmitted from person to person through the air by sneezing or coughing. The risk of people contracting TB from cattle in Great Britain is considered very low. At present, less than 1% of all confirmed cases of TB in humans are due to infection with M. bovis. This is similar to the situation reported in the vast majority of developed countries.

Thought it would put your mind at ease you have to read and take from it what you will. i have also read from another paper that human infection of TB had been exasperated due to the fact that farm animals were once kept in or close to cities and towns.   

posted 315 days ago kula:

Hi Newt,

I am actually currently looking at livestock vaccination. I will let you know when I have anything worth reporting. 

posted 315 days ago Newt:

Steve,

I have been thinking about your question all day. It is a good question, but in all fairness, I think we have covered this a dozen or so times already and I am mindful that you are one of the people here who says that I keep saying the same things, or am I wrong?

So how can I present you with my analysis of the situation in a new and orriginal way, bearing in mind that we both know that a) I have no control over the EU and b) you are going to rip my answer apart? (Which is only fair, I would do the same in your position and there is no problem in that except we keep going around in circles)

So perhaps it may be prudent to suggest that you visit Betina's thread on Vaccinating the cattle being "the very best solution" and if you want to come back on it, I will try and argue the case then.

However we are in the presence of someone who is (I suspect) more knowledgeable than I on the subject, perhaps Kula would like to answer your question?

In the meantime, no offence but I note that on your facebook page you say you are a muscian (sorry but you did invite me to join you, I just am not sure I'm ready to yet) what are your thoughts on how environmentally freindly Glastonbury was and did you attend?

I would like to remind everyone that this thread is supposed to be about us all taking responsibility for our own actions and business isn't it? So come on, let's hear how environmentally friendly your businesses are?

posted 316 days ago Newt:

Just popped in for lunch, got to be quick,

Oh Mark, really? This is what you think of me after everything I have written here? Why do you think I would possibly want to kill any more badger setts and that is my only motivation?

Judi,

I am not going to convince you of any such thing, I can see that. Your hatred of me and my community is complete and there is nothing that I could ever say that will convince you of anything else. So you are right, I would not dare to tell you anything.

Good luck, and take care.

Newt

posted 316 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I can only hope that farming animals for their meat will soon be a thing of the past - we do not meat to survive. Animal markets are terrifing places for animals......my husband who is a crime scene manager and used to seeing awful things in his job was stunned and crying when he saw a calf being visously beaten by a drover trying to load it onto a thruck taking it and other calves to the slaughter-house - so don't you dare tell me we need animal farmers.

posted 316 days ago mark williams:

Hi Betina

In regard to your concerns about the risk to human health you may like to read this it may put your mind at ease. It’s on the DEFRA web site. It seems to be the fountain of knowledge for some so we should read the text to.

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/human/index.htm

Don’t let people scare you from what you know is a right way to live. People want to scare you into submission no doubt, even make light hearted comments too. Their aim their prize at the moment seems to be just a few more Badger sets removed from the wild.

They better be absolutly right in this theory they hold to be so true, humanity is looking on.

posted 316 days ago Newt:

Raindance

I can't slag off the NFU they are watching this right now with interest. You want to make a difference?

The word is spelt - compromise

posted 316 days ago Newt:

Hi all,

Have to be quick, sorry spent too much time answering Dom on "A tip for gardeners" check it out, you might find it interesting.

Lisa I'm up for it, of course, not sure about petitions, but I'll play along. It's a good idead.

Dom, you got to love wonky carrots!

Raindance, yeah

Betina

Ah Betina!

What can I say? Of course you are quite right, and I suspect it was me you were so politely having a little dig at and yes, oh yes, you're so right, perhaps I have over egged the pudding (meaning I've exagerated the problem) it was unintentional I assure you. But how do you get across the very real threats that bTB has, if people don't perceive it as a threat to them?

Okay in all honesty bTB is very unlikely to kill many of us. It is not going to be like the Black Death of the middle ages. It is probably not likely to reach the levels of Victorian times when hundreds of thousands died every year from it. Not today when you do have a vaccine and you do have treatments that still work.

As things stand today, you and your children stand at more risk from cars on the road than bTB.

But, here's the thing, M. bovis is evolving, not as fast as E.coli that's like a car crash in the speed of its evolution, M. bovis is slower, it is more like a ship sinking slowly. BUT IT IS EVOLVING. It is that that is most worrying the experts. The potential of it getting out of control with all these failing vaccines and treatments, it is that that is most worrying.

The bigger the infection in the wild, the harder it will be to remove.

Please don't even think of shutting down the dairy industry or the meat industry - I'm sure that it is a concept that will be easy for you to discuss rationally. I'm sorry it is not one that I can talk about as rationally because I know that it will be like the mining or steel industries - irreplaceable and once gone, lost forever.

I know that some here would support that view and wouldn't shed a tear, but you're wrong. Perhaps you don't believe me or you don't care or you probably even welcome that, but please, think again. Farming is not all about the exploitation of another species for profit, yes of course that happens, but it also so much more.

I know I have upset and irritated many of you, but if nothing else, try and read these essays that I keep writing and see that many of us are as important to the environment as it is to us - it is a symbiosis. Okay you're right, we often get things wrong, but you will know yourself, in what ever you do to earn a living, no one notices when you get it right, only when you screw up.

Sorry I have got to get on,

Take care,

Newt

PS Steve, Thank you so much for your last post, I haven't forgotten you, I will be back to answer your question in more detail later, please forgive me. Newt

posted 316 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I'm having difficulties about this scaremongering that is going on here about the spread of bovine tb to pets and humans. I know tb have to be watched and followed carefully but so must any disease whether we're talking about aids, bird flu, sars and other - every infectious disease there's a threat to human being as a specie is our enemy. I'd like to take btb as serious as some people on here says it is. However, I can't stop thinking, if what they say is true and they're not exaggerating, and this big threat is lurking outside the doors of the UK citizens, then to save the humans, all farming involving cattle need to be phased out as soon as possible and all mammals of the wildlife in the cities should be catched and released and cities should be barricaded to keep wildlife from coming in. If this was hostile troops who wasn't up for negotiation, this it what you would have to do - not what you want but your only choice if you wanted to avoid being wiped out.

So why isn't it happening - the phase-out of all cattle farm or at least all dairy farms which seems to have far the most btb incidents than other farms and the wildlife. Some people will loose their businesses but could be compensated well enough to start all over. Dairy products could be imported for a period on 5 years, then after that it would be possible re-establishing new dairy farms. The reservoir of btb in the wildlife would have dropped since cattle no longer are there to maintain the disease and in those 5 years time it's very likely that vaccination of badgers could be implemented. A 5 years state of emergency! Cost-effective? I don't know but in such a case EU would have to help out.

It sounds like something from a sci-fi novel but so does the btb 'worst case scenario' allegations coming from those who's pro culling badgers.  

posted 316 days ago Dom:

Raindance we do go to a local greengrocer, it is well nice with wonky carrots and all sorts! Not these identikit veggies! Give me a wonky carrot anyday - O-er matron! sorry could'nt resist

So Im good there I guess?

posted 316 days ago Raindance:

LOL.  I meant to mention Lisa in my last contribution - a reply to her suggestion about a small farmers campaign group.  

Dom: Organic milk is a beginning, particularly if it is British.  Perhaps we need to see if we can buy British produce?  Some vegetable and fruit growers won't sell to supermarkets, so you may need to subscribe to a vegetable/fruit box scheme, go to local farms where you can pick your own produce or find an old-fashioned greengrocer (rare as hen's teeth where I live).  

posted 316 days ago Raindance:

That is a good idea. although it would be great to have some information first.  I wonder what subsidies are available already from the Government and also from the EU?  Perhaps Newt can tell us about these and what the NFU does to support small farmers. It would also be helpful to have some definition of what constitutes as "small" farm and how many there are in this country.  

posted 316 days ago StevenAult:

Newt, I'm not too clued up on the whole tb issue which is why I have'nt contributed much, but why is it not permitted to vaccinate livestock against tb under European Union law? Surely there can be an MMR type vaccination which guards against various infections? Public health issue? Are we able to vaccinate pets against tb? 

Steve

posted 316 days ago Dom:

Well I bought organic milk today, after reading Newts post a tad down, and I will continue to do so if it helps small farmers?

posted 316 days ago Lisa Patterson:

I have raised this elsewhere on this board. I think we should form an online action group to put pressure on the government to increase subsidies to smaller, family owned farms so they can implement better measures to reduce the rate of bTB infections in their cattle. Who's with me?

posted 316 days ago Dom:

Afternoon, 

Hi Newt, it's good to have farmers sharing here. Im not personally attacking you and always remember that and if you feel that way then just tell me. I am also very keen on breaking this city/country boundary. I literally live on a boundary one side country the other urban and if the environment is to survive , with it all our wildlife then we all need to work with and respect each other. There is a bigger picture than us and thats the planet. We are so close to castrophy, and we can only ignore signs but it will lead to our extinction. Right now we are at a tipping point, some scientists beleive we have already passed it. I have no kids but if you do I would really start to look into the situation for there sakes, ignore the politics, what oil companies say or car manufactirers, etc and search out the facts and most importantly whos behind the facts.

Anyway, erm on that note have a good evening :-)

Sorry to be a messenger of gloom

Catch y'all later, oh and don't forget the red kites, hedgehogs and otters, please check out my forum threads-Thanks

posted 317 days ago Raindance:

Kula, I'm sure you have read the 4 April report of the meeting of scientific experts at DEFRA, but here is the link for everyone to have a look at:

http://archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/documents/bovinetb-scientificexperts-110404.pdf

It is very short and has some data in the footnotes. 

There is a list of documents available for people to explore on the DEFRA website under "bovine tb".

Newt, I'm glad you got your hay in, and probably just before a downpour too.  Perfect timing.

posted 317 days ago Newt:

On the subject of bTB in Scotland I agree with Kula again, but take a look at the maps of bovine TB spread since the 1980's, it has all come north and west from the hotspots in Gloucestershire and Devon. With the outbreaks in Cumbria (and we don't know how it got there but we would if it was through cattle movements on the two farms involved because they have been very thoroughly checked) it is clear that Scotland has been very lucky so far, but it is heading their way and unless we stop the disease everywhere it takes a hold in both cattle and badgers - then it is only a matter of time before Scotland and the rest of the UK go down with it too!

posted 317 days ago Newt:

Sorry that should be "I have seen good and bad" not "goos and bad", I've seen many geese, but that is beside the point!

posted 317 days ago Newt:

Good morning folks,

I've just got up and having a coffee and reading all this (did 24 hours straight yesterday didn't get home until three hours ago, but we beat the weather and baled and wrapped all the hay!).

THIS IS BRILLIANT I CONGRATULATE YOU ALL!

Thank you so much Kula for joining us here!

A couple of things:

Dom

Sorry for the pathos thing, had to look the word up, I understand you thinking that, but you have walked into a very long discussion and without any knowledge of what previously was said, started making huge broad statements - but it doesn't matter, you are of course correct I was using pathos at that point.

You asked me two questions, I will answer yours but in return I expect you to answer mine, if I ask you any. Honesty is the best policy, and really we do not have to agree, if I expected that here I would have given up months ago!

"How is culling going to stop TB in inner cities?"

Culling alone will not, as I think you yourself correctly point out, cure this problem unless we wipe out the whole species. And no I have never said that's what I want, quite the opposite. Perhaps I haven't made this clear enough in the past, but we absolutely do need controls on farming practices - eartag swapping is deplorable and yes some people have done it and moving cattle from infected herds to shows and Willsbro have done DISGUSTS me.

However, you ask about culling of badgers, so back to that: removing the most infectious animals from a population (if it is done carefully) will reduce the incidence of that disease. It is a very simple concept that has worked before. Remove the infection and you will control the disease and with careful other controls such as those Kula and Betina (sorry Betina some of the ideas are a bit potty but some are good) and you could quickly bring the disease under control.As for cities, they currently hold a huge reservoir of wild and feral animals I'm told. One hears of badgers and foxes living in greater density in cities than in some parts of the country side. Perhaps this is wrong, because I got this impression from the BBC and frankly half of what they say seems to be rubbish so you tell me. We are told that urban foxes and badgers can live quite well on the detritus of the urban masses. That seems very likely! Logically then, if bTB makes it into this huge reservoir of mammalian life, it will spread unchecked, from badger to badger, to fox and cat both feral and domestic. This vector is well researched if you read about bTB enough. Children's sand pits are the perfect place for M bovis to be passed from cat and badger to child. Scatches and bites from kittens and cats and dogs are another excellent method of disease impregnation. This is a time bomb that is ticking and the only reason that it hasn't gone off yet is geography and the slow rate of reproduction in M bovis.

Culling is one small but absolutely essential part of bringing this disease under control, if we fail to bring it under control future generations will as Mark says, look back on us with disgust.

The next question was "why are health organisations not doing more?"

If a tree falls in the forest and you are not there do you always assume it hasn't fallen?

 The short answer to your question is that they are taking this issue very seriously I assure you. Some health professionals are extremely worried by the lack of potency of modern antibiotics on TB in humans. We are told that we are facing a very serious break down in our ability to control the disease.

Steven

I agree completely with your comments here, all except the one that says it is all about money. No it isn't all about money, but the government is obsessed by saving money and the farming community (for all the reasons Kula, Betina and Raindance mention and a few others) are unable to pick up the bill. So it becomes all about money when you have none.

Mark

I realise that your comments were not aimed at me, and thank you for that, however I still find your broad accusations against the farming community to be very deeply offensive and unhelpful.

I like your story and I agree totally that prevention is better than cure. But in your story, it is hard to prevent fatal injury once you are already over the cliff and bouncing off the rocks below!You are quite right; we could so easily have prevented all this back in 1986 when we were down to two or three tiny bTB hotspots. Had we continued with the ring cull technique that had removed the disease from everywhere else in the country and killed just a few more setts before we made badgers protected – none of this would be happening today.

Every day that passes, in which we do not grasp the nettle and deal with the infection in the wild life reservoir, it is spreading and growing and more badgers will have to be killed to finally bring it under control. Is that what you want? I don’t!Let’s stop fooling ourselves, there are lots of other things that we can do that will help control bTB but we absolutely must clear out the infection in the wild too!

Finally Organic Farming

Speaking as an ex organic farmer, who still uses many organic techniques, I agree with both Kula nd Mark here. You are both right in a way and I can see both view points quite clearly. Being organic absolutely does not make a farmer better and I have seen goos and bad on both organic and non organic farms and some of the organic standards are ridiculous - hence me leaving.

But it is broadly correct that organic animals have a higher freedom and less stress on them because of the methods used and I agree that there is no evidence that this has made any difference to their bTB status, if anything it has made it worse.

Why? Perhaps it is because they have more freedom to pick up the bacteria in the open.

At the end of the day, this is about infection with a bacterium. Anyone who thinks that healthy animals will get bTB just by being put in a shed together doesn't understand the problem at all.

posted 317 days ago kula:

Mark,

It would have been reassuring if DEFRA had sent to me data as well. Unfortunately they dug their heels in and said they did not have sufficient resource to send to me the data.

posted 317 days ago kula:

Mark,

Statistics can be misleading if the sample size is small, in which case exceptions as you point out would have noticeable impact, but when both the number of cases looked at is large and the sample is not selective in any way and includes all cases, then looking at the underlying trend is relevant. Both these conditions were met when looking at the data received from the Irish Republic.

Looking at the statistics, when both these conditions are met, is a means by which the best ways forward can be identified.

posted 317 days ago mark williams:

Statistics are a wonderful thing it gives leaned people and politicians no end of scope for debate and an outlet to spend money. Organic farming and farms can also fall into the groups of high risk areas and poor management and husbandry skills. Organic farming does not imply that an animal is loved or respected in a wholesome way or a farmer knows what he/she is doing. A farmer that is non organic could have better skills and more suitable facilities at his disposal as conventional farming has, to bring up only two point we could mention.

But put stats to one side for a minute forget what the maths says. The question we should be asking is. What does our humanity say to us? How perhaps would we like to be treated as an animal ourselves? After all how long would our civilisation last if we were put under unnecessary stresses.

posted 317 days ago kula:

Raindance,

To address the "now" issues, if you want to reduce the pressure to cull you need to look at ways of reducing the prevalence of TB in cattle. Probably the most effective way of doing this is to improve the separation between badgers and cattle in and around farm buildings. In order to do this properly and effectively small farmers need to invest. Farmers currently receive no compensation for sealing their buildings and very few farmers appear to be doing it. Having said this not all farmers are in a position to do this anyway because their buildings are too open and the cost would be prohibitive. However there is a certain proportion who can. An example of one who did is illustrated in Section P of http://www.bovinetb.info. This farmer appears to be currently reaping the benfits of doing this by going clear on tests when his neighbouring farmers are not.

Regarding husbandry, in Soil Association General FAQs it asks "How does an organic dairy cow's life differ from a non organic dairy cow? Answer: Organic farmers believe that stress is one of the primary causes of disease and welfare problems in intensive livestock farming. The Soil Association standards for organic farming are designed to reduce stress to farmed livestock through a variety of management techniques."

Ministries hold data for each herd in the country which shows whether a herd is registered to be organic. If stress and organic management techniques is having any bearing on the prevalence of TB in cattle, you would expect to see this by seeing a reduced proportion of infected herds in the organic population. I asked DEFRA to provide this information but I was told they were unable to provide it. Northern Ireland and Irish Republic did provide me with information.

The following is what I gleaned from what the Irish Republic sent to me.

In the Irish Republic on 31 December 2009 there were 972 organic herds recorded on DAFF records of which 45 were disclosed as reactors. This is 4.6%. The number of herds in the country at this time were 117,287 of which 3,222 were reactor herds. This is 2.7%.

This says to me that the prevalence of TB in organic herds is greater than in the total population and that reducing stress and adopting management techniques to achieve this does not appear to be effective in reducing TB.

Northern Ireland also sent to me data and the following is what they sent.

<STAT OF EXTRACT>Further to my letter to you of 5 October 2010 and discussion with my colleague, I can confirm the position already outlined to you and provide you with some additional information.

A study of the prevalence of Mycobacterium bovis infection in organic livestock herds in Northern Ireland for 2007 and 2008 and case studies of seven herds in a high-prevalence area from 1990 to 2008 was conducted by Olwen M Kerr, BMV&S (Edinburgh), MRCVS. This was submitted to the Environmental Teaching Group, Scottish Agricultural College in 2009 in partial fulfillment of the requirements for the degree of Master of Science.

This observational, retrospective study, which focused on the prevalence of TB on 48 NI organic livestock farms in 2007 and 2008, found no significant difference with that in non-organic herds within their 3 km zones and with the NI prevalence rates.<END OF EXTRACT>

This all says to me that adopting the management techniques of organic herds is not having any impact on reducing the prevalence of TB in herds. Judging by what is said on the Soil Association web site the ethos of the organic movement is to adopt techniques which reduces stress in the herd. This does not appear to be having any impact.

Copies of the actual request and response sent to and received from the ministry in the Irish Republic are shown at http://www.bovinetb.info/organicfarming.php.

Bettina,

Regarding TB in Scotland, the Mammal Society on their web site point out the following.

"This population is unevenly spread across the country: about 25% of badgers occur in southwest England, but only 10% in Scotland."

This may be relevant.

posted 317 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Raindance, I agree with you, especially that part of approaching btb from every possible angle and funding it properly.

I've heard Scotland got rid of btb without killing anybody - so how did they do that? Was the btb situation there as bad as it is now in England and Wales?

posted 317 days ago Raindance:

If we add together just some of the many threats that our farmers face - the impact of cheap food imports, the behaviour of food retailers in driving down the prices they pay to farmers, the recent lack of rain, bTB, the "drought" in loans available from banks, disease scares in the 20 years - then we may be heading for a perfect storm in farming, particularly where the "small" farmer is concerned, or as near as such an event. The result will be more people going out of business, with all the evils that brings in its wake, at a time when we badly need to improve food security. This is something we should take very seriously, particularly in the light of climate change.

We can pick over the issues in bTB ad infinitum, but we have to deal with reality. The only way to tackle the scourge of bTB is to approach it from every possible angle, and to fund it properly. If we may fight wars for which many of us hardly know the reason, and bail out bankers, then surely we may find adequate funds to support farmers and to work towards finding a solution to this disease. 

Farmers are always going to ask two questions when faced with any proposed measures: how much is it going to cost? and who is going to pay?

Things take time, and in some ways we have all the time in the world; in other ways we have no time at all.  So there are things that may be done now and things for the future. If one employs management tools in this, then one asks: where are we now, how did we get here, where do we want to go and what are the steps we need to take to get there.

For the future, I would pursue my Holy Grail of seeking a viable and effective vaccine against bTB. That may be a long way off, but there are other things that may be done: much as in Wales, deferring any decisions on badger slaughter for a defined time, whilst arranging a comprehensive scientific review including bTB data mapping, a review of badger vaccination trials, and an update on vaccine development programmes.

To address the "now" issues, concurrent with that exercise, the Government could provide funding and advice to assist with improved and greater secure husbandry methods, and impose appropriate control measures on cattle.

There have to be safeguards stitched into any funding to ensure that money is indeed well, and honestly, spent. The Badger Trusts's press release on 1st July about switching cattle ear-tags is shocking. Fraud is an ugly word for an ugly crime, but it is just appalling to switch ear-tags and endanger the livelihoods of other farmers as well as the health of their animals. 

A question remains about what, if anything, might be done to address the issue of sick badgers.

And looming on the (near) horizon is a notification that many people who support the Badger Trust, received today: 'it is anticipated that Caroline Spelman, the Environment Secretary,will recommend that badgers be culled in England to curb bovine tuberculosis (bTB). The article which appeared in the Sunday Times on 26th June 2011 goes on to say "The policy, which follows a public consultation, will be put to the cabinet for approval in the next ten days".'  We can write to our MPs and members of the Cabinet, and just hope that they have some courage to make an appropriate and just decision. 

posted 317 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Wow! Something more we can agree on - This is GOOD for our common compromise:) Oh what a happy day it is. Let's celebrate!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DaY8-Mui0I

Mark and Kula, definitely! Small farmers have to be able to securing their cattle as the giants. It is money well spent.

That time will come, one day you'll see, when we can all be friends

posted 317 days ago mark williams:

Bingo!

This has been a point of mine all along. Yes if people want to eat meat then yes they pay for it and take some responsibility for bio security, it can’t be left just to farmers with varying profits. All this wealth the government has spent to date what have we to show for it apart from some dead Badgers and statistics we can all talk about till the cows came home with TB. But if this money was spent on real every day useful things that farms could translate into keeping cattle clean happy and separated from Badgers would we still have the problem?

posted 317 days ago kula:

Sorry my posting have referred to badger culling rather a lot. As I said below, one aspect where I think there is big potential for alleviating the problem and hence reducing the pressure to cull is to improve separation between cattle and badgers - particularly the relatively small proportion of infected badgers which are particularly infectious and in regular and frequent contact with cattle. I think the best way of doing this would be for the government to apply a combined carrot and a stick approach so that (a) more farmers will be able to afford the alterations to their buildings and (b) so that some sort of checking is made to ensure that farmers are sealing their buildings each night. 

posted 317 days ago kula:

Mark,

The report published in Feb 2010 says that culling, as performed in the RBCT, does not appear to be cost effective and culling effects are short lived.

However this was based on incomplete data. Use of incomplete data was admitted by the group leader in her posting on 14 Dec 2010. In fact the Feb 2010 report shows a graph where the benefit goes negative in the last 6-monthly reporting period. When the missing data is added in, the benefits goes from a 10% detriment to a 10% benefit. In addition to this, analysis of the most recent 18 months of data rather makes a mockery of the assertion made in March 2010 that benefits had ended 4 years post cull since benefits have remained positive in the last 18 months and stood at 37% in the last 6 months!!

The second to last section at http://www.bovinetb.info/rbct.php titled 'The latest data' shows a graph of the data on which the Feb 2010 assertion was made and data which extends right up to Feb 2011. As you can see there is a substantial difference. Also the last section titled 'Some questions and answers' gives further explanation.

posted 317 days ago mark williams:

The ideas on this site I feel can go along way in helping the fight against TB take a look. My interest is finding a way that can help farmers but does not see any destruction of our wild animals which I feel is perfectly feasible.

http://www.bovinetb.info/

Did you know we spent 87 million pounds on Randomised Badger Culling Trial (RBCT) in 2009/10 alone? However the findings of the Imperial College London published an article which stated benefits from the RBCT lasted 4 years after culling ceased and in fact diminished by 14.3% every six months. This means that the cost of culling as performed in the RBCT was thought to be between 2 and 3 times greater than the cost savings returned from reduced incidence of infection in cattle herds. Hence culling as performed in the RBCT does not appear to be cost effective and culling effects are short lived.

How many farms could have been helped out to build better bio security into the farms frame-work with 87 million pounds? Buildings hard standings badger proof barriers and fencing around sensitive areas. Instead it was spent on compensating farmers for lost cattle and killing badgers that would only spread the problem to new areas and has been proven to be ineffective.

All this reminds me of some wise words that I will share:

‘ Twas a dangerous cliff, as they freely confessed, Though to walk near its crest was so pleasant, But over its terrible edge there had slipped, A duke and full many a peasant.

So the people said something would have to be done, But their projects did not at all tally. Some said, "Put a fence around the edge of the cliff," Some, "An ambulance down in the valley."

But the cry for the ambulance carried the day, For it spread through the neighboring city, A fence may be useful or not, it is true, But each heart became moved with pity,

For those who slipped over that dangerous cliff; And the dwellers on highway and alley Gave pounds and gave pence not to put up a fence, But an ambulance down in the valley.

Then an old sage remarked, "it’s a marvel to me That people give far more attention To repairing the results than to stopping the cause, When they’d much better aim at prevention.

"Let us stop at its source all this hurt," cried he. "Come, neighbors and friends, let us rally. If the cliff we will fence, we might almost dispense With the ambulance down in the valley.

posted 318 days ago kula:

Steven, Many farmers in TB hotspot areas are quitting due to the hardships associated with TB. In Apr 2011 Prof Christl Donnelly posted results up to Feb 2011 when herd incidence in both proactive areas and adjoining lands of the RBCT were still declining. In fact in the 6 months upto feb 2011 herd incidence in proactive areas were 37% less than in survey-only areas. This is after culling stopped in Oct 2005 which was five and a half years ago. This implies that culling is not short lived and the benefits did not stop 4 years post cull. This is a statement made by Prof Donnelly in March 2010 which she is now having to retract. This sustained benefit was achieved through just culling badgers 8 days on average per year in which the 5 of the 10 crucial initial culls were carried out in mid Winter. This is the least effective time for culling badgers and probably responsible for exagerating the perturbation affect. This is why bager culling is receiving the attention this it is and why it is wrong and misleading to say that badgers are being used as a scapegoat. Supermarkets and a badly behaving market is probably responsible for more reason for farmers to quit but in areas such as south west england where dairy farming tends to be concentrated, bovine TB and badgers is a big issue and rightly so.

posted 318 days ago mark williams:

Hi kula,

Yes I totally agree we need small farms we need farmers that take great care in their cattle. I see the benefits in small herds scattered around the land. But we must have public money to help make this better a better way forward. Its not fare a small farmer has to pay for this in our country it will benefit us all in the long run. We need a standard of practice as I see it a model farm. in the way these fields and sheds are run and built and maintained. Light and ventilation have already been brought up, along with fencing. What else?

posted 318 days ago mark williams:

Morning newt, morning all,

Its good that a man can get things of his chest keep coming and keep bringing it to the table, I like and relish the debate. But at no point have I insulted you personally or your ways, I would even congratulate you for being here also for your comments about the care you personally take in farming. I wish there were more like you out there however there can’t be or I would not have to read stories about fish dieing in streams that are just down the road from where I am typing right now. Yes TB is a worry to and living in the south west as I do perhaps I should worry more.

But at what cost do we save ourselves again? How many times do I turn the television on open a paper or magazine just to hear of another animal or forest paying the price for our mistakes our greed our stupidity and short sightedness? As I see it we live in a culture of dept we live well today and leave the debt accumulate for later. However later will come to us all and that debt will have to be paid back, paid back with interest. What stories will be told about us? these stupid folk that lived back then? Our personal gift as I see it will be lessons on how not to do something.

Perhaps I should not care perhaps I should be grateful that the farmer toils all day just to feed me, freeing me to pursue my own wants. Perhaps I should not bother typing this as I’m on holiday from work and the sun is beating down and I could be walking along the beach right now. But I can’t my own personal conscience will not allow me newt. I need to tell the story from my perspective, how I see this business called farming.

I to love badgers I never see them now as they are scared of us humans, it’s a shame as I have experienced another side a gentle noble side. A story of a family of them out for a walk one day and they came right up to me and I was allowed to touch them even the young, a real privilege don’t you think.

Anyway I’m off now maybe we can work something out later. Did you view this man

A link here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bw7mQZHfFVE

His work looks good. What do you think, do you think this to be another way to farm. One in witch our children do not need to pay our bills, and I’d like to hear yours and everyones constructive criticisms.

Regards mark

posted 318 days ago StevenAult:

I think badgers are being used as a scapegoat here. Small farmers are being driven out of buisness by the big supermarkets driving down milk prices. Small farmers feel powerless against these huge corporations. Farmers deserve a far higher price for their milk products. I honestly believe that if margins were not so tight, badgers would not feature so much here. Badgers were protected because they were being used for bloodsport. Do you want a return to these dark days? Badger culling would give lampers, badger baiters, and dog fighters an excuse to reprise these dark passtimes. Newt, if farmers received a better price for their dairy products, would there be as much emphasis on badger culling? It's all about money is'nt it? Should'nt you be campaigning against price fixing? Maybe we all should be. That probably hurts farmers most.

posted 318 days ago Dom:

No offense taken -Will you quit with the pathos Newt and calm down.

I did not realise I could 'nt post on a forum unless I agreed with you.

You must change this sweeping assumption that people don't know about conservation and all live in cities. The past week I have been watching and filming barn owls, less than 5 minutes from my home. I can even see the chicks in the nest. Which is excellent news as the hard winter did the barn owl no favours. Mean while today I will have the job of counting butterflies.

My grandad was a farmer (RIP) - hence the sheep, but he could 'nt tell the difference between a kestrel and a buzzard. He was a great bloke but his attitude to the local wildlife sucked, I still respect him for some of his other endeavours like the amount of trees he planted and we still see today. 

How is culling badgers going to stop Tb in inner cities? why not answer that one please.

Why are the health organisations not doing more?

And I will disagree with you, culling very rarely offers long term solutions unless you wipe a species out. 

When Newt did we say you were a bad farmer? 

I stated I will suport and I do the small farmer as I believe they are the key to our environment. But There are bad farm practices out there as there are in all professions. 

Kula I will look at that website, thankyou. 

posted 318 days ago kula:

Where I refer to "closed farms" in my post below I am referring to herds in which no cattle are bought in and taken out to shows and all animal regeneration is performed through artificial insemination. I am not referring to farms on which the buildings are sealed. (I know there is no such thing as a "closed farm" but on such farms the risk of cattle to cattle transmission is reduced.)

posted 318 days ago kula:

Betina, you are tipping the balance in favour of factory farms when badger numbers are not being reduced. This is because these factories have better intrinsic biosecurity due to the way they can seperate their cattle from badgers. Why not help to try to redress the balance by making it easier for small familly-run farms as featured at http://www.bovinetb.info Section P to take the positive step of sealing their builders? These farmers are not receiving any help from the government in England to do this and are having to foot the complete bill themselves when they can least afford to do this after being closed down with TB. Many are quitting rather than investing and hence accelerating the pace with which more of our food is being produced by factories. It is not so much what is happening out in the pastures but what is happening in the buildings which is probably responsible for the majority of breakdowns in "closed farms". Badgers, who are in the late stages of the disease are rejected from setts, take the easiest root to survive and this usually involves setting up home close to easy to find food sources such as in or close to farm buildings. These badgers are shedding large volumes of bacteria and are in frequent and close contact with cattle. I think effort should be directed towards keeping these badgers separate from cattle rather than separating them out in fields or making cow pats less attractive to badgers. Unlike badgers, cattle are culled at a very early stage so do not reach a late and highly infectious stage like badgers. As Prof Rosie Woodroofe pointed out in her 2006 paper titled "Culling and cattle controls influence tuberculosis risk for badgers" the prevalence of TB in cattle and badgers appear to be closely related. So if you help one species you are helping the other. Also if these efforts to separate badgers from cattle pay off, this will reduce the pressure to cull badgers. 

posted 318 days ago Newt:

Wise words Betina, perhaps you're right.

But you need to know that bTB is a mutation of TB that was orriginally a human disease and has been around for thousands of years.

The UK was given disease free status in 1985 but two or three tiny pockets of infection reained. Then we protected the badger and stopped all culling. From those tiny pockets of infection we have gone from culling 500 cattle to over 40,000.

2,000 badgers will be found to have died of bTB on the ground in the South West alone this year. Thousands more will die under ground. Multiply that up to a national epidemic and you are looking at hundreds of thousands dieing in a few years. IF vaccinating with a failing vaccine doesn't work - which it won't - you are looking this growing to possibly millions of badgers dieing annually.

Cats, dogs, alpaca, deer, horses, sheep, and HUMANS are all dieing of bTB now.

What badgers have you saved?

posted 318 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, may I suggest a small break from this site? Non of what recently has been posted has anything to do with you and the way you farm. We have our freedom of speach and this is what we use on here. Your presence here have been very illuminating and I think most of us would like you to stay. I do. I wish more small farmers would join this site and join in on our debates, fighting with us not against - you're not helping the situation by loosing your temper, it's not the best way representing your community which we would like to preserve. 

All most of us want, is to end all FACTORY farming, getting rid of btb and support small humane farming, whom we know also are victims of the industrial farming business, like the badgers are.

Btb is has it's roots from this big business and instead of changing their farming methods they seal up their factories and trying to stop btb coming from the outside - and blaming what's out there to be the real source. They don't give a sh.. about the mess they've created - they do not clean up after themselves. They should be helping out small farmers and the wildlife - but they don't. Instead, they refuse to take the responsibility, they put EU subsidies right in their pockets and when they've paid big salaries to the top of the farming elite there's no money left. The subsidies doesn't even help making a profit - it's a sick business which cannot be compared to small scale farming. I believe I've said this several times before. Come on Newt, let's get beyond this  - let's look ahead.

posted 318 days ago Newt:

Dom

You're comments meant nothing to me, sorry no offence, actually I agreed with many of them, just not your conclusions. I could tell you hadn't read any of the facts about TB actually, you were just asuming that you knew all the answer and that's apparently because you walked behind some sheep once, is that right?

Just so that you know, we don't want the whole badger species wiped out, we just want M bovis wiped out. Healthy badgers are our best friends; but you won't understand that. I wonder when was the last time you saw one? I saw one this morning and my heart soared, when TB gets here, it will be different; the badgers that I see most will be the sick and the dieing and those I will have to put down. Thanks.

Kula

Thanks it's good to have your support, but they don't get it. We're wasting our time here.

Mark

You have twisted my words. I have tried to be patient and explain things to you, but you are so fixed on what is wrong with factory farming that you've completely missed what I have been trying to say about small farms. We don't do those things, that's why we are being pushed out...but hey that's what you want right?

Perhaps you're right, perhaps there is no common ground between us. Perhaps there is no room for your views and my views here.

I heard on the news on my tractor radio that some kid in Bristol was killed yesterday. Using your logic, all city kids must be violent, drug ridden gang members then?

You are right, lets do away with all farming, lets go back to the hunter gatherer culture, the survival of the fittest, we'll turn the country side over to the gangs and the drug lords and release wolves and lions and let all the wildlife get TB and let the strongest survive.

Actually I really fancy my chances there.

Just one question: what will we do with the bodies? Oh of course! Stupid me! Its dog eat dog in your world isn't it?

Now let me tell you something that has really chilled me. Remember that we know someone with suspected TB? It is going to be six weeks, not until he's cured as we orriginally thought, but before they can confirm that it is TB!

Six weeks of isolation until they can confirm his illness, and then they can start to treat him and we're now being told that'll be months...poor so and so... but what do you care? TB isn't something that will affect you is it? It is a cow disease right?

Think about it.

The implications are horrendous. TB is out there, just because you haven't sen it yet doesn't mean it is isn't there. At the moment it is the south west of the country, wait till the urban mammals get it and your pet dogs and cats. It's coming, its just around the corner and its coming right at you...

Good luck!

I obviously can't rely on any of you to help, I'd better go get a gun licence!

posted 318 days ago Dom:

Well Newt, I did nt direct any post at you as I did 'nt even read any previuos post bar Brian's header. So why are you being over sensitive. I have 'nt called you cruel to animals but some farming practices most definately are. 

Instead of getting in huff why not address the points brought up.If you have already then why worry?

Whatever I said which offended you, sorry but I make no apologies for my points some which are fact some are thoughts.

Again for all your good intentions, you imply that no one but farmers could know about farming. As a lad I herded sheep up country lanes to the dip, helped shear and feed the orphaned lambs. 

I also clearly stated that I always surport farmers who help the environment, but I'm not going to pander to any ones feelings, sorry. 

The planet has 'nt the time.

And I'm A welsh veggie-I gets loads of comments I could take offense to, yet whats the point?

Chill out Mate, you sound a good sort, but your on the net, not a place for over sensitivity.

posted 318 days ago kula:

Hi Raindance,

If I had to pitch up at the Secretary of State’s desk, I would ask if there was a means by which farmers could be encouraged to do more to stop terminally ill badgers in the last few months of their lives entering their farm buildings. Although the most prominent means of transmission is not known for sure, those people who have studied the problem believe it is these badgers which are mostly responsible for transmission from badgers to cattle. Such badgers often take up residence close to or in farm buildings, are shedding large quantitiies of bacteria, and are in regular and close contact with cattle.

Unfortunately sealing farm buildings is not always possible because some buildings are just too open and putting up an electric fence does not always stop a determined badger. Also it needs to be easy to erect because the farmer needs to seal all his buildings every night. Steel cladded doors and tamper proof handles to feed stores may be more appropriate. This does not come cheap but the shortfall between slaughter value of cattle and replacement costs are such that in England, farmers whose herds go down are losing thousands of pounds.

posted 318 days ago Lisa Patterson:

No one said you were unkind to animals Newt. Just that some farmers are.

posted 318 days ago Newt:

Mark, Dom and Betina,

I've just come in, exhausted and started to read what you've written here and I'm shocked, really shocked. I don't know what to say I really don't. I don't know why I bother! Perhaps this is the real problem, we just can't communicate. I've done my best to enlighten you as to what my world is like and you throw all this rubbish at me. Thanks, you're right that's just what farming's all about, I'll go and get my baseball bat and go and beat a few innocent bunnies shall I? Because that's all I do isn't it? I mean you'd all know wouldn't you!

Sorry Raindance, not you, thank you for trying.

Good luck everyone

posted 318 days ago Raindance:

Newt,

I remember those sturdy little MFs from my childhood. We didn't have round bales then nor wrapped ones either. And for us children, there was nothing, but nothing, quite like lying flat, high up on top of a loaded hay wagon at the end of the day, breathing in that warm sunshiny smell, watching the sun setting and the moon rising.

I don’t need to tell you that hill farming isn’t easy, but there are compensations that no amount of money can buy. The hill farmers in my locality were a tough breed; they had to be. Rearing cattle and sheep in those conditions, was no picnic, and the winters can be very harsh. There were some bad apples, but on the whole the farmers I knew were decent, God-fearing men, who worked very hard.  

Now to badgers.  It's easy for us to sit at home, tapping away at our computers, and batting this subject back and forth. I’ve been asking myself a question: what would I do if I had to pitch up at the Secretary of State’s desk in Smith Square, tomorrow, Monday morning, and take charge of this, and many other, issues? The simple fact is that I don’t know.  

Whatever decision is made in this matter has to be evidence-based.  That's really what is on my "wish list".

Mark, Dom and Betina, you raise some important issues that need attention and action.  I guess what you are talking about is a cultural change.  We can't leave this to politicians.  

posted 318 days ago Dom:

The trick is Betina, not to preach about being a veggie just quietly and calmly explain and stick to your convictions. You won't turn every one but with time slowly the wheel is turning.

Just look at all the products labelled Veggie and the amount of stuff we can now buy.There are a lot of us and I bet the meat industry is getting worried.

I have so many people who seem to want to justify eating meat to me it is strange and I figure if you feel the need to justify yourself you probably feel guilty about it.

posted 318 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I'm telling people.... I'm trying to. Hey Dom - please take a look at my thread; Can we get cattle faeces to repel badgers? I think you will find it interesting;) and would be cool with some thoughts from you too.

posted 318 days ago Dom:

Oh and Betina tell people!.

Websites like ViVA have many articles and pictures.

Going veggie is a doddle, easiest and best thing I have done for a long time.

posted 318 days ago Dom:

Betina, you have done the right thing.

Factory farming is vile. Look into hatcheries to, you would think that any male chickes born would go on to become meat chickens right?  Wrong -they are whizzed away on a conveyor belt ONE DAY OLD an either gassed or fed into a grinder still alive. It is nothing more than criminal and barbaric. Simple. It is like one huge bio mechanic food machine. Something more nightmarish than H.R. Giger could dream up.

Since going veggie, I have never felt better .

Ghandi and Leonardo de vinci were also veggies and I belive Einstein. So if you get that hitler was a veggie insult, reply with these three enlightened geniuses.

posted 318 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I'm almost in tears now. Just watched a program about industrial chickens...... my sweet lord, so many innocent young, almost baby chickens, dies because they can't live up to our standards - some have weak joints or some are just weak, so they are killed by humans and thrown away into a dustbin. Every day chickens get killed, they simply can't cope with all that food and no freedom to move around. When they're dead and gone their wings keeps on flapping. Sometime I miss the taste of chicken, I admit, but watching this I'm so pleased to have choosen to be a vegetarian. This is not right, chickens on factories. Giving life and then take it away (while still ýellow) if its not strong enough to satisfy our human need for meat. How did it become this way?

posted 318 days ago Dom:

Another worthwhile point is the amount of scaremongering going on about TB.

That badgers are the blame for the rise of TB in inner cities. If this were so then the health organisation would sweep aside any cull/ anti cull arguments and remove the wildlife.

They would be on high alert, except if you visit TB heatlh site the badgers are not even mentioned.

For the most part TB appears to be brought in from abroad and thrives in inner cities due to no testing combined with no TB vaccination given to school children of course it will rise.

Tb can be spread from animal to human if a human was to breath in an animals cough cloud, seems more likely to come from a cow which is head height to human as oppose to a badger. It can also be spread from human to animal

Also the BTB hotpsots are in Wales and the West, a fair few miles from cities like Birmingham and London.

In Third world countries the people who are at most risk are those with HIV, a repressed immune system along with poor cattle testing, no pasteurisation,  is one of the causes. And guess who introduced Tb into these third world countries?  European cattle.

If the badger was a huge health risk then where is the official documentation, where are the doctors warnings? If it there I will accept it and not kiss any more badgers (Joke about snogging badgers)

Infact the only way I could see a badger transferring TB is if you licked the ground or your hands after resting them on previuosly unrinated grass.

However considering the amount of parasites - like worms - you can pick off countryside grass I would wash your hands, use sterile wipes or bottled water before eating a picknik in the countryside.

Best Dom

posted 318 days ago Dom:

Another question?

With the cull estimated to cost the farmer £90,000 up front how can they afford this.

can farmers not see that the powers in charge must be rubbing there hands with this.

Surely that money could be spent on other better long term methods.

The badger is a stubborn creature who patrols the same routes nearly every night. Surely just by keeping cattle away from these tracks if they are by hedgerows would be more sucessful. One farmer's blog I read had put a fence round his fields which was about a metre away from the hedgerows, they still have clean status. Cost not even a fifth of 90 grand. This was 'nt a big fence just a standard post and wire fence.

The badger tracks run by the hedgerow  so the cows could 'nt eat the grass where the badger had urinated-simple

Infact most badger tracks I observe run by boundaries, fences, hedges, etc, etc

Also although stubborn if a badger track did go directly across grazing land then with a bit of perserverance divert them. Dig up the track and block it the starts and finishes and persist until the badger finds another boundary  route, which it will. Bait could be used like peanuts and other food to encourage the badger.

Also it would nt hurt to keep the cows off the field until the badgers are divirted.

Of course this will never happen because the only solution the NFU see fit is slaughter, and they continue to waste money until they have there pound of flesh.

Infact so few other methods have actually been tried or tested in twenty years its depressing-all the research is targetted at how effective a cull would be and when the reasearch does 'nt hold up a new scientist is brought in until the results match the  NFU vision.

posted 318 days ago mark williams:

This story turned up in my local West Briton News Paper today and it made me think about my last few posts that seemed to disgruntle a few people. You should take a look see; I have even found a link about this article for your convenience. This is just total negligence and lack of care. It makes you think what can happen behind those Rosie red gates on the good old farm.

http://www.environmentalistonline.com/article/2011-07-01/45k-fine-for-flower-grower-that-poisoned-fish

ps I have subsequently heard that it was hundreds of fish that were killed.

posted 319 days ago Dom:

The things with culls on any species-in my experince they are poor short term solutions.

Unless you cull on a very small island and wipe the whole species out then its a waste of time.

Look how many cull councils do of gulls and pigeons, etc and still they come back.

Because in the Uk we have no Wolves or bears the chain is broken. Humanity wiped them out.

If a food supply is there you will never get rid of a species unless it is wiped out.

Hence the urban foxes, rats in grain stores and slaughterhouses. 

The reason why gulls have moved in from the coast is they are not sea birds but will live where a food supply is, the decline of the fishing industry means they have more food in cities and tips than at the coast.

I often follow these badger cull posts with interest, I read some strange stuff.

Alot of farmers seem to believe that people still seem to think that badgers, sparrowhawks, foxes are cuddly.

Do they think us stupid? I love the badger because they are built like tanks and that jaw-what a tool! This is an animal that takes no Sh!t and all the better for it-quit trying to show us as bunny huggers and face reality-we know a lot and in some cases more than some farmers on bio diversity and wild life. I witness done farmer call a gull a seagull-seagulls do not exist. Petty ? maybe but if you argue animals then get the facts right

Apparently they belive us to be shocked that a fox will eat a rabbit?

Or a Sparrowhawk eats a sparrow.

I mean Serioulsy-how stupid do they think us? It's nature and to watch a sparrowhawk hunt is a lesson in humilty-for us to do this we need  laser targetting or scopes

I digress, but the more culls nature will just come back. 

More effective longterm measures usually can be found by securing rubbish, changing bins, or even through nature herself. Predators usually

Most species will regulate them selves in time simply because of habitat room and food source. However most species in the Uk are constantly being cut back so they are alway trying to fight back.

I will help and surport any farmers who looks and conserves wildlife on there farm 100% and they have my utmost respect. If I know a farmer is taking a bit of time out to  surport a species (animals, plant, tree, etc) they will gain some of my income because I am becoming very good at finding where my food is sourced. maybe we could all do that a bit more. Even the farmers who shop at certain supermarkets.

I bet if a cull goes ahead in 15 - 20 years this topic will be open again.

Also as a comoprimise if any cull happens I will push harder for the reintroduction of the wolf, which is not as far fetched as some might think.

And my final say-leave the fox alone-its Britains last true free spirit. I love them-persecuted, shot, hunted and still here theya re kickign butt and annoying all the right people.

Excuse spelling errors and digressions but this was my thoughts about the outdated method known as culling or slaughtering.

Best

Dom

posted 319 days ago mark williams:

You paint a Rosie picture newt,

Not so much fun when it rains or you are ill I bet. You forgot to mention the farmers that need to milk the engineered dairy cows before they burst with the milk that has no calf to suckle, it has already been done away with, never had a chance to experience life you take so much joy in Newt. The Cattle that need cosseting and need constant care as they too have been engineered to produce more meat, but has left them ill equipped to tackle even simple pathogens. Chickens that never see the light of day feel the sun you and I take for granted. The chicks that are poured into mincing machines because they are deemed unprofitable, what life have they enjoyed.

You didn’t mention the farmers that have to scatter poison on the land to get food to grow from land that was exhausted even before I was born. There only hope for new crops next year is from a chemist’s test tube and not from an act of nature or their good works. The constant liberal use of insecticides that are killing us and the environment we need to survive.

The farmers that remove all hedge rows and create massive fields that are more like deserts for wildlife then fill these fields with genetically modified grains.

Farmers that feel a need to poison or shoot all life be it land animals or birds in the air that threatens the profits made.

I think this is enough said now as I think you can gauge my perspective on a growing trend in farming. This is not every farmer I know and my respect to your own beliefs and ways. But there is a middle ground from where we can do something different. Sepp holzer could help farming the world over to find a new way.

posted 319 days ago Newt:

It was a glorious day here yesterday; blue sky, sunshine, gentle breeze, good company, good food and a very pleasant environment. My community, my people and my family were all out together working in our fields as our forefathers have done for generations; okay now we drive tractors – you know those horrible giant symbols of the industrial age that annoy towns folk so much as they hold them up on the roads – but essentially nothing has changed for thousands of years. We were making hay as the sun shines.

In the morning, I drove our “brand new” ten year old tractor, mowing a couple of our meadows and my son drove our old girl a fifty year old MF 35 haybobbing out the grass to dry in the sunshine. My daughter rode with me on the side seat, chattering away happily about this and that and my wife supplied us with an endless supply of refreshments.

Before I will mow a field, I like to be sure that any ground nesting birds have hatched and left the nest. Normally I leave haymaking until later than this, but even then you can never be totally sure, so I like to walk the meadows regularly with my dogs, to check what’s going on – but this is s job for the skill naturalist, because you need to disturb the birds just enough to know that they are there, without frightening them off permanently and the thing is, they never take off straight from their nest but sneak off a short distance first. But you get a feel for it, but it’s never 100 %.

In this field we usually get a pair of Oystercatchers nest. Have done for years and they are like clockwork. Their chicks had fledged and were busily fluttering around next doors small lake, their parents making lots of noise and chasing away crows – so I thought we were safe.

Of course I have to be on my guard and just in time I spotted a hen pheasant and realised that she must have something there – two tiny chicks appeared in the grass. I had stopped in time and my daughter and I managed to rescue the chicks and move them over into the cut grass away from danger. Of course the hen made a big fuss trying to coax us away from them and bursting into flight to try and get us to chase her. But the chicks were what we needed to get, so once we had those we took them to safety and she returned to them.

My son had a problem and so I went to help him and my daughter mowed for a bit. Then later my daughter and returned home for the bale wrapper and a bale lifter and we went back to the field next door to wrap the 100 or so bales we did the day before. All along the route our neighbours were all out doing the same, with every kind of tractor and machine that we could collectively put in the field. The roads too were full of contractors hurtling about (well for us and by our standards) baling and wrapping and haymaking. Everyone looked tired and dusty but we all had great big huge smiles on our faces and we all happily waved at each other as we gathered in the winter fodder for livestock as quickly and frantically as we could before the weather breaks next week.

At tea time my wife drove into the wrapping field and with a round bale on the loader and a second on the wrapper, I raced my son back across the field on his 35 with a bale on the back, my wife spun our little car around and happily joined in the short dash to the bale stack and we were all laughing and pretending to take it all very seriously. As we joked around eating fresh chicken and salad sandwiches and doughnuts we chatted about the hedges – which I’m allowing to grow out here so that I can lay them in the winter – they haven’t been trimmed for a few years now and they absolutely laden with sloes, elderberry, wild rose, Hawthorne wild fruits of every kind. My wife talked of rose hip syrup for our porridge in winter and sloe gin for Christmas and I thought about the flocks of redstart that would fill our fields in the icy winter days and the blackbirds and thrushes that inhabit this field.

Then as the mid summer sun set, we left wearily but contentedly for home, meeting all our neighbours along the route who were finishing up the day’s work and setting off too. The old folks were out, bringing refreshments and advice for the young and brother was helping brother after a family tiff, united again in common purpose.

So tell me Mark, is this the industrial mega factory that you image the countryside to be? Is this the heartless, environmentally disastrous and selfish money making disaster that you portray here so often? Ordinary working people all out together in their respective families, helping each other gather in next winter’s feed for this horrible machine you call a food factory?

If it is, I wouldn’t swap it for your world for one day, despite its luxuries, not this day, not this place; this is special and as different from city life as I can imagine, because I can guarantee you as we each finish in our own fields we will be watching our neighbours and if anyone is struggling and the rain is coming – out of nowhere, unbidden and unasked for – the big tractors will arrive to help and with many strong, hard working hands and the crop will be gathered in and not one penny will ever pass from hand to hand in such an emergency, because we all know that we need each other and that could be us one day and this is my community. This is why I am here. This is what matters most. This is what I most want you to understand; we are not heartless or uncaring, we are a loving, hardworking community that works together with our environment, our families and each other every day.

posted 319 days ago Newt:

The Apache say that you should never judge a man until you have walked in his moccasins for a day

posted 319 days ago mark williams:

Hello Newt and Ssimples,

I didn't think my last post was that dismissive of farming i feel that some kind of farming is here to stay for now. I do like the idea of hunting and gathering so perhaps i was born to late. I also like the outdoors and yes i have had a go at living from the land that came with military experience. Believe me there is so much one can do with an onion and a potato and inventiveness. 

But what i think i was trying to say is. Through the ages man has faced challenges to his existence and way of life but we have always came through we have always evolved. Not because we fought our way out but because thought our way out.

We have the ability to do so much better for ourselves and the animals we share our planet with. The iron age ended not for a lack of iron did it.

I didn't mention factory farms as an option as it seems on the outside to be a perfect solution or at least a better one but it’s not what i’d call a solution. We can see what concentration camps done for humans so why would a sane person want it for animals. if illness broke out what then. Also if one man cant maintain the health in ten head of cattle, what makes us confident then, that ten men can look after two hundred head.

This never ending cycle of more also needs to stop. What comes first the population that needs feeding or the abundant food that feeds population waste and growth. WE waste enough food already to feed an extra thirty million people in the Uk alone. So why do we need to trial genetically modified wheat in the UK next year. Why do we need so many animals in factory farms.

posted 319 days ago Newt:

Hi Ssimples,

Great to see you here, thanks for your comments they are very wise and ones I totally agree with!

Mark

The problem with your last post is that you are on the one hand presenting the hunter gathering culture as the ideal, then you oppose hunting and killing anything. I don't get it sorry.

Also in the friendliest possible way, I challenge you to go into the forest and live for a week on wild food alone. We were totally self sufficient for a few years and what we couldn't grow we harvested from our own woods. It is possible to survive, but I would, at a very educated guess, suggest that the maximum population of the British Isles for a hunter gathering culture to be no more that two or three hundred thousand. What do you suggest we do with the others?

And trust me there would be no time for anything else you would be too busy looking for your next meal, especially if you had 65 million other people doing the same!

There is evidence that before agriculture the human population was about ten thousand, nationally.

You often attack livestock farmers, which is understandable as you are a vegetarian, but others attack big arable concerns, questioning their use of chemicals and fertilisers, together both groups would prefer to see agriculture descimated. That is until the food runs out.

Actually you need us, even if you don't appreciate us.

Take care,

Newt

posted 319 days ago ssimples:

Mark

Unfortunately I do not think waiting 20 years for significant benefits from the other commonly sited solution "vaccination" is on many small farmer's agendas either. Trialing of the oral vaccine has not even started.

Issues such as bovine TB are accelerating the conversion from small familly-run farms to large, zero-grazing factory farms. Such outfits are better equipped to keep cattle and badgers separate. Many small farms have buildings which are too open to enclose without the expense being prohibitive. I help out on a small familly-run dairy farm every weekend. This is a closed farm in so far as no new stock from outside herds had been allowed on the farm and no stock had been taken off and returned to the farm since 1989. After going down with TB for the first time in 2008 the farmer spent over 9000 pounds erecting metal cladding and walls specifically designed to keep badgers out. This farmer was fortunate in that he had buildings which he could seal. The farmer footed this bill with no compensation and he did this when his farm was closed down so he could not sell any surplus cattle and his feed bill was horrendous. The next time he goes down with TB he will be quitting. He still has to turn his stock out to pasture in the summer. Large factory-style, zero grazing, units have purpose built buildings which are easier to seal. Plus they do not have to turn their stock out to pasture so their biosecurity is superior. This is why bovine TB is accelerating the conversion to factory farms.

When this happens, badgers will no longer be an issue for small farmers because (a) there will be fewer of them about and (b) there will be less pasture habitat and food for badgers so their numbers will reduce naturally. The culling of badgers will have been prevented so perhaps a good result in a way but not such a good result for farmers who are currently going through hell trying to stay in business producing the food which we eat.

posted 319 days ago mark williams:

Thank you for that post Betina,

Well its so disappointing to read these findings and on such sensitive issues. Can we really trust farming to police itself? 

posted 320 days ago mark williams:

Thank you for you generosity with my comments. Yes i do see your problems your worries for your way of life. I do like the idea of quality before quantity and feel this is a way forward for our farming of animal and vegetable produce. However the animals farmed would have to benefit from this. I do not like the idea of breeding animals that could not maintain their own existence without external intervention from man, as this is an abomination of nature and a creation of man. The idea of smaller farms is good it makes for a robust system that can change and respond quickly to bio threats. Along with other measures would also be good, perhaps cattle being eaten within the community from where they lived would be an idea? less movement and perhaps no more shows where cattle could easily pick up disease would be stopped too. A zero movement of animal livestock has to be good.

But this all comes at a cost though as its not the cheapest way to farm. But then what price do we put on our food after all its the life giver. So it will need backing from Government and protecting from the vultures in business that do not want to pay any fare price for anything.

But is our future set in stone is farming our only way of progress?

Farms and farming I have been told has given us this modern world, it has shaped it so. Freeing so many minds and hands to do wondrous and not such wondrous things. But this is not true, not true at all.

Cave paintings of man some 32 thousand years old are testament to his early art his celebration of life and what it means just to be a living thing. His endeavor to discover the meaning for everything and his place with in it were burning in his heart in his head and his hands long before farming came to be. We wondered at the earths beauty and the heavens that surrounded it so. Invested everything we had in building our relationship and understanding and we took only what we needed. So why have we gained so little but lost so much. Has farmings only crop been greed?

There has to be another way another path to walk.

Badgers are a victim of a disease of mans folly, his inability to work in a relationship with nature The badgers then should be regarded as a casualty of our apatite for more. What we do to make amends with nature is very important but how we do it even more.

If we get it wrong we will be seen by future generations as the savage, our only interest in war and wealth.

If we are to make a new start than we should then stand with the farmer and share the costs in putting some of this wrong right again. I don’t know how to do this but we have to try. We must educate with awareness commercials, our Government needs to communicate with the masses on these matters at every opportunity and not just prier to an election campaign. We need telling straight of our actions and why we may have to change. If we have to pay for a vaccination campaign then that is what we do. If we have to pay for 10 thousand miles of new fencing then that is what we pay for. I don’t see an alternative. But killing is not on our agenda...

posted 320 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

For how many years have they killed badgers and how many have been killed?

"Defra's sudden, massive and expensive response to the scandal of farmers switching ear tags to foil bovine TB (bTB) controls suggests these crimes are widespread rather than local. In view of the urgency vets offered their services free for six months to gather samples.

The Badger Trust emphasises the possible outcomes: a diseased animal could infect other animals, some of these could be sold to other uninfected farms, a sick animal could then be sent to market and to shows to mix with many others and then be sold into another herd. Tuberculosis is not like influenza. It can remain dormant between tests that can be up to four years apart. The scale of these cattle-based problems vastly outweighs any possible contribution by badgers. Bovine tuberculosis will continue to be difficult to eradicate without universal annual testing and tighter movement controls, despite the economic consequences. Killing badgers is not an alternative."

From Badgers Trust: New fraud in cattle TB testing

http://www.badger.org.uk/_Attachments/Resources/535_S4.pdf 

posted 320 days ago Newt:

Hi Raindance,

I'd love to share a hot chocolate with you and maybe Brian and some of the others would join us and discuss something less contravertial!

Here's my wish list,

I hope we can all stop fighting and find a way to bring and end to all the heart ache that this is causing us all and if we can't find another way but for killing, let's get it over and done with before the numbers get stupid. And I pray that no one else has to die of bTB before we can get it under control.

posted 320 days ago Newt:

Mark You make some very good points here. Personally I am moving my farm away from quantity to quality and I know a lot of others who are doing the same. I would agree with your other points too. Once again I note that smaller farmers are tending to do these things more than the big units that are pushing us out. It's a mind set I suppose. As for wildlife and environmental improvements, we have gone a long way in the last twenty years or so , but we have a long way yet to go. As for welfare - we have an enormously better welfare system here than iin most other countries - see my comments below about our Spanish vet. But again we have a long way to go. So yes I agree.

Now let me ask you to think of this, say someone from outside your industry said okay this year I want you to give up 10% of your income, what would you do?

I pay a very, very high price for my environmental work, but I can't get a penny back for it on the price I get for my products. Oh the government "subsidise" it, in that they will give certain grants for certain things, but usually less than half what it costs. Yet we still do it?

Why? Because actually, I think most farmers want to do these things.

Now the same is true of bTB, farmers are paying a very high cost to remove this and a lot of other diseases from their animals. What do we get for it?

Abuse.

Time and time again a farmer gets rid of bTB from his cattle and then it comes back. Why? Because of the latent reservoir in badgers. So if we can't deal with the issue in badgers, why support the endless culling in cattle? And the constant abuse.

The one thing that you absolutely must have (and the ISG said this) if you wish to tackle bTB is the cooperation of farmers. You won't get that by attacking them all the time, they need your support.

posted 320 days ago Raindance:

Newt,

Thank you.  I will come back with my wish list, although others might have some good ideas.  

Hot chocolate ... that will be on my wish list, most definitely.

posted 320 days ago mark williams:

Perhaps newt,

A place to start would be to reduce the numbers of farmed animals in the uk. I think these 2009 figures are correct. 9.9 million cattle, 30.8million sheep, 170 million chickens, 4.6 million pigs. Perhaps its now time to reduce these amounts as it is apparent that our farmed lands and its wild life are under to much pressure. It is also apparent then that our farming philosophy is out dated for our modern needs. Bio security in an ever increasing human population is paramount to anyone wanting flesh with every meal. or to pay a national dept for that matter. If we fail to eat less flesh, the numbers of farmed animals will increase and so will the pathogens in our environment with them and t.b. will be the thin end of a long wedge. We are told by the government that we don't as yet have the tools available to deal with the problems we already experience so in my opinion it would be foolish to maintain farmed animals at current levels.

I also think the argument for carrying on a bad practise because there is evidence for others doing worse is a failed argument. surly its up to everyone to do their own best regardless what anyone else is doing. Its in this way the world and what goes on will improve for the better. after all someone needs to carry the torch for truth and enlightenment here, if not its only symbolism is to light a fire to symbolise a start to a few games and running races for personal glory and fame and nothing more. 

posted 320 days ago mark williams:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13989264

Is it just me that thinks the United Nation would say yes to any project as long as it made money for someone somewhere. Do they need to irradiate and destroy this land, then tell me it would be good for the park. It would make $490,000 a year to help maintain it. Its not even the price of a smart bomb in the arsenal of the countries making these decisions, so why cant they just give our money to these projects anyway.  

posted 320 days ago Newt:

Oh what a day, started at 6.00 am and it's now 11.30 pm and I've just walked in and sat down with a hot chocolate to see what you have to say to me. Bearing on a roller on the baler caught fire ealier, so I stripped that out and the other bearing at the other end (they always said I was losing my bearings), replaced the worn out drive chain and later fixed a broken belt. But I've baled a couple more fields in between so we're getting there.

George

Thank you, there was an apology in there somewhere I think, so I'll happily take that;)

Yes mate we are going around in circles a bit, but that isn't all bad, sometimes you need to do a bit of circling to get things straight before you can move on. Have you ever seen racing pigeons do that? When they're first released they circle a few times then set off for home. Perhaps this is all part of a process that we have to go through before we settle down and get on with working together.

Raindance

Once again you make some very good points and I totally agree with you.

Remember our little talk about black cars and white cars?

During FMD we had a Spanish vet as I've told you stationed here for three days, I got to talking to him as you do, and asked about being a vet in Spain and was it any different, "Oh yes indeed," he replied rolling his eyes. "You English farmers are so much better..."

"Better why?"

"In Spain, if a farmer has a cow who is not calving, you know?" I nodded. "They leave her a while, then go back and try and calve her, but is no use, so they go in again and have another glass of wine. Then they try again. Then they call little man down the road and he come, but is no good. He not a vet, he not even a farmer - barber maybe or bar owner. But he can do nothing, so they have another glass of wine and the family arrive and Uncle Bob, he have a go, but is no good. So they have another drink and some one say 'I know' and they get the tractor and put a chain on the calves legs and they pull and pull and drag this poor cow around the yard and she in great pain and bleedin' and dieing. Then they stop and realise something wrong and finally they call the vet. What am I supposed to do? When cow dies, it is all my fault and they won't pay the bill and expect me to pay for new cow!

"No you English is so much better, you calls the vet straight away! I like the English, they are a bit strange sometimes, but you are a good people and you care about your animals."

Well anyway, that's pretty much how I remember it. Take from this story what you will, me I'm just glad that I'm not a Spanish cow or a bull for that matter. And really I know that many here don't want to believe it, but actually most British farmers are really caring about the animals in their charge. Perhaps that's why we don't like being told how cruel we are and why we get so angry.

I hope we can all work out some common ground, but it is going to be an uncomfortable journey, because first we must learn to talk to each other.

Anyway, my hot chocolate is cold so I'm off to bed, good night.

Newt

PS Raindance A wish list would be a good place to start, why don't we do that? If we can't agree on a cull, just now, let's draw up a list of things that we need to move forward with this, are you up for that George?

posted 320 days ago Raindance:

Newt,

It's been a long two days. I've looked in here now and then, but not had time to write anything.

I am very pleased to read your remarks about Brian. Very pleased. I don't find your presence here "difficult" and, while I can't speak for other people, I can't see that it is. I think you would be surprised to learn how much people here appreciate you. You mentioned "principles" way back. Principles, I have always thought, are there to support a person when the going is tough. However, there are certain situations where justice demands due consideration is given to both sides And this is where finding that middle ground I mentioned earlier is key if any progress is to be made.

I have just spent a day amongst people, some of whom have very differing views on what might be done to address the badger question. Some would never do anything to badgers, sick or not, and some others would put a sick badger to sleep, along with any other animal they felt was not "viable" (not my word!). So you see, there are opposing views even among animal welfare campaigners.

Setting that aside, ultimately, the question that farmers, Governments and taxpayers (which includes farmers) are going to ask is: who is going to pay for whatever programme is put forward. And another question we might reasonably ask is: who will make decisions here?

I think any decisions have to be collective ones. They can't be left to just one group of people and we have to find a solution that benefits us all - humans and badgers. We can all think of the things we would really like in any given situation but we have to deal with reality, and that is never black or white; it is frequently several colours all together and usually messy as well. So we may end up with a list of things, rather than absolute clarity.

Any programme of disease eradication, along with proper support for our farmers, will cost money, lots of money, and one might reasonably ask whether this is a good thing to do. I think it is; I'm sure many others would agree.  

posted 321 days ago George:

Newt,

I apologise for your troubles with my comment, though I felt it was appropriate as I was merely drawing a parallel, as Lisa said, based on how I perceived your stance. I do not apologise for what I say because I think before I say things and make sure I know it to be right. However I'll gladly apologise for others' reactions.

The last thing I would want is your comments or ability to comment removed. I'm quite strongly libertarian so I would gladly defend your right to call for culls wherever you please.

This is why I 'politely asked'. You're going round in roundabouts with everyone here, and I don't think there is any turning off.

posted 321 days ago Newt:

Lisa

Sorry I have a duty to add to my last comment Lisa, that there is also a moral dimension to treating sick badgers. Without taking side in this argument: is it right to treat badgers, with antibiotics that are failing to serve us when more people will die in Africa today from TB than HIV AIDS?

At the moment in this country we can just about cure TB in people using current methods, but their effectiveness is already compromised.

Should we be risking losing any affective treatments by exposing known infection in wild animals to these drugs?

That will be the argument that you will have the most difficulty overcoming if you want to treat sick badgers.

Sorry. don't shoot the messenger!

Newt

posted 321 days ago Newt:

Hi Lisa,

Good question and one that I totally sympathise with 100 %. (sorry for not replying sooner, we had unexpected visitors last night).

I have absolutely no problem at all with sick badgers being treated, especially if the infection is mild - perhaps some will be so bad that the kindest thing to do is let them go.

Unfortunately as I keep trying to point out here, I am not the one in power.

All of the above said, life is never black and white; for example none of us have any real power, but togther we can influence those in power if we act responsibly and fairly and reasonably.

It is also true that treatment for sick badgers is not a balck and white issue either. Firstly and most important of all we must assess how the treatment will impact on the individual animal. No intervention with a wild creature is without difficulties, the stress and so on of captivity - but on balance, I personally would think that in the majority of cases, there would still be a good case for intervention along the lines of th Wombat project that you mentioned before.

However, those in power are obsessed by the cost of all this. I suspect that in the present climate there would not be a hope in Hell of you getting public funding for such a project and the costs here would be huge - the land alone would be prohibitive.

May I suggest that there is a fantastic oportunity for an organisation like this, with people of wisdom and passion, to set up a campaign to raise funds for just such a rescue project?

Betina and I were openly working on an agreement that might be acceptable to the farming community, why don't you help us and add a section outlining a rescue plan for sick badgers?

As for the Stalin comment yes Lisa I agree, he didn't call me Stalin, perhaps it was an attempt at humour, but I am getting a little tired now with comments like these. I realise that my presence here is difficult for everyone including me, but we are all accountable for our actions and I believe that it is right that people of conscience, like yourselves have the right to question the actions of others. So you have every right to question my actions as a farmer, but then I equally have every right to question your actions and some of the arguments posted here have been very unbalanced and offencive against my people.

So I will defend them until stopped and then I would I point out to any that would listen that my right of free speech had been taken away - but I don't think that will happen as long as I obey the rules and furthermore I now realise after talking with him that Brian would never do that. Quite the opposite, and I realise that this forum is being very generous to me and I will try to respond by being less aggressive myself.

That does not excuse the comment though, and I still require an apology George, I'll wait, I can be very persistant and dogmatic, pig headed and anything else you would like to call me; but you over stepped the mark there and I do require an apology.

Take care,

Newt

posted 321 days ago Lisa Patterson:

I don't think George was saying that you are Stalin, Newt. He was simply drawing a parallel (sp?).

Here is a suggestion - you said in one of your posts that you are in favour of culling the sick badgers. Let me ask you this: Why cull them instead of treating them, trying to make them better?

posted 321 days ago Newt:

Hi George,

Sorry for not replying sooner but I have been away working all day without computer access.

Thank you for this, I understand your point of view and your very polite request. There are strict rules here on what is posted and if you have a problem with what I am saying then you have every right to complain and if the moderators or Brian ask me to leave I will.

I don't take kindly to being called names and you and a couple of others have done this several times now, however I have not responded in like kind so if I am being at all aggressive then it is in self defence, however this is wrong and I apologise if you feel that I have treated you unfairly, perhaps you would like to apologise now for your comparrison between Stalin and I?

I look forward to your reply,

Newt

posted 322 days ago George:

Newt,

I'm going to repeat one thing alone this time. I politely ask you caese the pro-culling arguments here. They are very clear and will remain here for all to see. I just think its pointless to keep go around in circles with the other members here, especially as you're doing it in quite an aggressive way. I and others will respect you more if you just leave it as it is.

posted 322 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Ok Newt, let's take a break.

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Betina,

before you go ponder this; no you're absolutely wrong, I do not want to kill any badgers to save my business.

I want to kill infected badgers elsewhere to save the badgers in my wood who I care about very deeply. I also want limits put on a cull so the police are involved in keeping things in check.

I am also concerned for my family, I don't want to discuss this here as others will jump on it, but let me say someone close to me has a compromised immunity and likely to get bTB if it comes here. Then I'm concerned for my cows who are very dear to me.

The business will survive no matter what, that bit is easy to deal with, it's everything else that is impossible.

I do not have a gun. I do not want a gun. I don not want to kill anything. But if I had to, if you put a gun in my hand, I will do the job.

Don't be sad. Go and relax. I feel the same way, if I could drag myself away from this I would be gone in a flash! 

posted 322 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I'm sad Newt.

I was deeply disturbed of what you said - that we should stop kidding ourselves and that badgers are going to die. It was like you were on your way with your local community with guns all angered and stirred up, ready to slaughter all badgers in the area. I'm confused because you gave an impression that you would agree on NOT killing badgers unless they were very sich and suffering badly. I felt you were giving up on our compromise, that it was all a big joke to you.

And there's no point in repeating ourselves. I know your views on the BCG vaccine already, why tell it again? No matter how bad it is, I believe in it. If you really want us getting a compromise then there's no point in keeping on stepping round in my 1. or 2. item, which actually are indisputable. You have opinions about it, you don't agree I know, and that's ok, but you can't prove that it wouldn't work and that it would be making things worse. The items that are the most important for you is basically the rest of our agreement - all other stuff we put in it is about saving farmers, an attempt in making things easier, securing the future for small farmers in a way so you and they will have no problems with this compromise, and perhaps then there's a chance its easier leaving the deeply rooted thought of killing the badgers as the only solution to your problems.

Last, I want to add, that I know you have a huge empathy for both nature and its creatures. I know that, but I believe, that you believe killing badgers would solve your problems and that you're prepared to do so to save your livelihood. You consider this as an emergency case for small farmers and that to you would justify a cull. If you want support from outside the farming community you all have to be openminded for other solutions to your problems because btb is only a part of everything - you are treathen from many angles. Going against the badger cull and start focussing on all other issues, would be far much better use of your time and energy.

Now I need to distance myself from this a couple of days, if that's ok with you. Then we can try again if your up for it?

posted 322 days ago Newt:

By the way, while you were sleeping three 4 x 4's went past here in the night, they had big lights and although they would say that they were lamping for foxes, I bet it wasn't foxes they were looking for.

The game keeper tells me its ridiculous out there, you can't move for people lamping at night since they announced the cull wasn't going to happen.

You could all be in with a chance of controlling this, but it seems that you would prefer to pretend it wasn't happening. I offer you a chance to take part and your "principles" get in the way. Perhaps we need those principles at the table rather than outside shouting abuse.

Thought of that one George - oh sorry that's right you don't reply to my questions because they're not "relevant" but you expect me to reply to everything you post, but I'm the selfish one!

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Oh yes I have missed something; I am awake, been up for an hour, had a bit of a lie in sorry!

Are you awake yet buddy?

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Have I missed anything from you last post George or does that cover it?

posted 322 days ago Newt:

George

BTB is a mutated form of M. tuberculosis a human disease actually.

You didn't shake me up, don't flatter yourself and your proposal to kill cows, guess what it is happening as for killing humans, guess what humans are dieing of it too!

Wake up you tell me, smuggly. You accuse me of being selfish, yes you're right, I'm selfish and arrogant, because I think we, you and I George can hammer out an agreement that we could put before an NFU who might just jump at any kind of an agreement that didn't make farmers the sole ones responsible for this disease and I'm selfish enough to let you put conditions on that, that I have no right to agree to. I'm selfish enough to do it openly and in full view of the World if they want to come here and read some of this nonesense and I think that we can SAVE SOME BADGERS!

We can't save them all, some are going to die anyway, but is you can shut up long enough to agree to some with terminal bTB to be culled - there MIGHT be something we can agree to.

That is how selfish I am!

posted 322 days ago George:

Newt,

I find it interesting how you respond very selectively.

The Stalin comment was to put your thinking into context. If it shook you up a little then that is good, you need it. You need it because you need to realise there's other species that live on this planet, that have just a right to inhabit it as we do. Yes that includes badgers that may be resting now unbeknownst your talking casually of their murder.

Maybe this will wake you up as well, seeing as bTB is a disease of cattle, why don't you just kill your cattle? That means badgers wouldn't be burdened by your disease. In-fact, why not kill all farmers while we're at it? They reduce biodiversity, inflict disease, among other things. You see the argument for killing can be applied just as rationally in many other ways. Or wait, this killing involves you so I guess that therefore means its bad. But WHY is that Newt? Why are bad things only bad when applied to you? Is it because, OKAY don't shoot me for this one, you're a little selfish? Hey, I'm just hypothetically putting it out there, maybe you can answer that question for me.

I do not need to go on. As I've said this is a circular argument. We are against culling and you will not convince the good of us, period.

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Thank you Kula I agree.

George

So now I'm Stalin? That's sad really George.

Perhaps we could go back a little and look at what caused this melt down?

Betina very wisely asked the question of how would I deal with cubs locked underground in the sett. She pointed out very reasonably that if we can't vaccinate them how could we cull them either? Just leave them to die of starvation if their mothers were culled?

This is a very good question - one that I had not considered. If I wanted to kill baby babdger cubs in the sett I would say gas them. I didn't say that. That is not what I am suggesting.

What I was trying to say, is that in the context of a cull in which we only put down sick badgers, we would not kill any badger until the cubs underground were big enough to survive without their mums. If they were then found to be sick too, then it would be a kindness to put them down too. If they were okay then they would be vaccinated and released. The same would be true of their mums.

Look folks I am really trying to find compromises here. I am trying to find common ground, but frankly I am a very moderate farmer, the NFU might never agree to your proposals.

I am not asking for you to embrace murder all I ask is that you consider the possibility of putting down those animals that we can't help, and if that puts cubs at unknown status at risk, then we could wait until the cubs are big enough to asses.

Do you want to be part of the solution or do you want to leave it to others who you can shout abuse at if they don't do what you want?

It's now 11.30 pm and I've been up working since 4.00 am so I'm off to bed and George you owe me an apology for the Stalin comment. I'll wait but you will apologise for that one day it was not the right thing to say at all.

posted 322 days ago kula:

Perhaps there needs to be a mind shift towards achieving eradication of bovine TB as this may prevent more suffering in the badger population than just preventing culling. Some members on this forum appear to be just focusing on preventing the culling of badgers in order to "save" badgers. If TB is going to remain for many years to come as may well turn out to be the case, whether this is justified or not depends on whether death by TB is preferable to death by culling. Unsolved problems with vaccination may mean that disease levels will remain high for many years to come in both the badger and cattle population. Regarding disease levels in badgers, one in five badgers found dead on roads in the DEFRA funded RTA carried out between 2000 and 2004 were found to be infected. Although culling leads to increased levels of disease in badgers due to the effects of perturbation, waiting for the outcome of vaccination trials which have yet to start on orally administering the vaccine, could easily mean that wide-spread use of vaccination is 10 years away. I think it needs to be recognised that these trials may not be successful anyway. For example a mutated strain of the bacteria may become established making the vaccine even less effective than it is today. However assuming that the trials are successful, significant benefits may not be seen for an additional 5 years after implementation starts. This will take us to 2026.

Recognising the best way to act fundamentally depends on recognising what the problem is.

posted 322 days ago George:

Newt,

That is not what I said nor anything close to it. You clearly misunderstand the points I make and so I see no point in making them to you anymore.

You've clearly justified culling badgers to yourself long ago regardless of the ethics, science, economics, etc. etc. Thus to continue to argue further would be like trying to convince Stalin that culling the kulaks would only worsen the situation - though rational, reasonable and ethical you wouldn't get through to his warped, though ruthlessly intelligent mind.

As others have already said, you're presence is welcome but your pro-culling arguments are not particularly so anymore - fundamental differences mean you will only go round in circles with everybody here.

I genuinely hope that one day you find some peace and empathy for nature and its creatures, for you are only fighting with yourself until you do.

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Thanks Raindance,

I've only stopped to repair a breakdown - doing my R2-D2 bit - so I'm feeling rather grumpy and frustrated so probably not in the right frame of mind for all this right now. this is what I do actually, I'm not a farmer or the Dark Lord of the Sith or whatever you all lable me as, I just solve problems to survive. BTB isn't a problem that I can solve though, which is a shame. Never mind we tried.

It's a shame though, I really thought for a moment there we had something great, a compromise that didn't involve the mass slaughter of badgers, that I was prepared to take to the NFU and see if we could work together on hammering out an agreement that might have led to a real solution to the problem. I was thinking of the next step, I even started to set about arranging a top level submit, in private where the Save Me people would have a real voice in this - but what's the point?

I'll leave it up to some one else to solve, is that right, is that what we do?

By the way, someone in my wife's office has just gone into hospital for six weeks with TB. I suspect we might all be able to say that soon, but we have plenty of time don't we?

I'm off to farm!

posted 322 days ago Raindance:

Newt, The way I see it is this: our problem with bTB is a matter which affects all of us who live in Britain, not just farmers, and there are two distinct views here.

On one side are some people (including farmers) who want to slaughter badgers, and they present their evidence to support such a move. On the other side are some people (also including farmers) who say that the science doesn't support such a move, and present their evidence to support their stance.

We all recognise the devastation that bTB causes both to cattle and badgers. We also appreciate the financial losses that farmers incur when their cattle have to be shot, and their hard work and care for their cattle appears to have been in vain. We want this awful disease addressed as quickly as possible.  So far, so good - both groups want the same thing.

What we disagree on is the means to achieve that "same thing'.

There is a huge amount of worthwhile work going on to find non-slaughter solutions. There are badger vaccination trials in train right now. The National Trust began a four-year programme last year at a bTB hotspot in Devon - the largest field trial of its kind, where badgers within a 20 sq km area are trapped and vaccinated. The Gloucestershire Wild Life Trust has begun a similar trial (see Badger News in the News section on this website). Additionally, scientists are currently working very hard on finding and producing vaccines.

The results of these programmes will take time to appear. Time … we understand that farmers don’t have “time”. While people are busy conducting trials and research, farmers are losing valuable cattle.

I would favour waiting for solutions to be found that don’t include slaughter, safeguards to be put in place to prevent, as far as possible, transmission of bTB, and for farmers to be properly compensated for cattle that they lose. I know that’s a simplistic formula for a way forward, but most of the people who visit here are not decision-makers in this problem. We are just concerned people who have limited means at our disposal, but we understand the issues and we, like Brian, are in this for the long haul.  I think that all of us here would give anything to achieve our goal of dealing effectively with bTB and preserving our wildlife, particularly, badgers at the same time.  

I’m happy to continue to this conversation, but it might just be in danger of going round in circles. You will never convince us that culling is the way forward, and we will probably never convince you that it is not.  

The common ground is the bit in the middle where we both want the same thing, and that’s the space we have to inhabit.

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Oh well I tried....

posted 322 days ago Newt:

Betina?

What happened I thought we were working through our differences and you say all this? Have I missed something?

George

Perhaps you are right in what you've said here. You certainly are if you believe that it is never right to kill anything under any circumstances. That I can understand. I don't agree, but I can understand the position.

Would you kill to save a life?

posted 322 days ago George:

Ditto what Betina said.

People are here to save animals.

Let's fight the disease, not innocent badgers.

There is no compromise between kill and not kill. One is for those of us who sympathise with the creatures who have to share their earth with us, and one is for those who care only for themselves to the extreme of ignorance.

No argument will solve differences between those strongly pro or anti cull, because the differences in the people of each are too fundamentally different.

The people here are 'Savers', and in the end, you're either a saver or you're not, the latter just won't fit in with the beliefs of this community.

posted 323 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Perhaps people won't join our discussion because they think it's hopeless, because two of these opposite opinions can never be merged. Or is it because we're repeating ourselves?

Newt, I'm trying to achieve a compromise without killing badgers. After culling, new badgers will arrive and get infected by the sick cattle - even if all badgers were killed btb would still be there.....If you're not dealing with the source, and the estimated 9% of infected badgers are not the real source, then all you'll get is annual killings of wildlife. What's good about that? Nothing!

It would mean we would have to accept bovine tb as a part of our lifestyle and we would have thousands of dead badgers on our conscience every year - and for what? Meat. It's not acceptable and if this is how it's going to be, I won't compromise. The source is not badgers, it's cattle and if BCG doesn't work and we can't kill badgers - then we have to open our minds and get them brain cells figuring out other solutions.

We can keep on throwing the same arguments at each other - that just doesn't solve anything. I know where you stand - you know where I stand. You and I may not be very important or significant in this fight but I strongly believe in the power of the people - if we don't have that, we can just as well shut down the democracy. If all people had the same voice - protested against the killing of badgers, then we would have an opportunity of changing things and putting massive pressure on politicians and make them find other solutions asap.

That's what we're trying to do on here - SAVE - and I for one thing would like to save not only the badgers but small farmers as well, but for me to do so I need you to back off the badgers. Actually I'm much more depended on you that the other way around - all you have to do is sit back and wait for the kick off signal, from the pro-culling government. I need a much louder voice to stop them and so my own is not powerful enough. Unless the whole approach to btb is changing, we have to keep on fighting for postponements so scientists in the meantime can improve vaccination for badgers and cattle - perhaps it's ready next year.

People on here and on similar places do not have a choice - but farmers have. You think you don't have a choice, that you have to go along with whatever suits the government or EU for that matter. You have a choice and a voice. To kill or not to kill that's your choice, if you choose not to kill then all I can see is a lot more support that you're getting now. Supporting a cull will not save your business, or will save your livestock and it won't eradicate btb - all you get is a deeper cleft between us and a bad reputation. Would you rather be in this situation every second year than being a small hero forever?

posted 323 days ago George:

"Badgers are going to have to die"

Newt, the fact that you can talk about killing badgers so readily and repeatedly is deeply troubling. Forgetting all the evidence against culling for a moment, in terms of principle, I think most people here in comparison to you are willing to avoid killing at all costs.

If I may say something, I'll repeat along the lines of what I've already said. I think you're fear of the disease infecting your cattle is battling against your rational mind, and understandably winning. Of course, this is your livelihood, we all respect farmers, you put our food on the table. But your comments reaffirm something I've known for a while, we are all here for ourselves. What I want is irrelevent to what you want. What even Science claims may not be relevent to your wants either.

Anyway, I'm going to refrain from going to far in disagreement. I don't want to end up like my opponents here on the PETA argument, aggressive with no reason to back it up.

Sorry anyway back to the point, perhaps Brian is the only one that could sway you here. Evidently your not convinced by the science and ethics of the issue - and though we've all tried he would most probably have more success. Good luck on getting that pub meet with him!

posted 323 days ago Newt:

Betina in answer to your questions:

Don't worry about the details of inspections too much, there will be time to sort that out later, if we can come up with a form of words that Save Me can agree to, and let's face it some will never agree.

A common agreement might not be possible, but we should still try.

Local people will kill badgers, unfortunately that isn't the problem, the real problem is stopping them going too far.

Badger cubs in the sett are a real problem, it seems the simplest solution, would be to cull in the second half of the summer when they're all out - thinking about it, that would work for vaccinating them too! Well done, that solves that problem thanks! IF vaccinating could be relied upon in a failing vaccine. Still wouldn't stop an infected badger infecting the cubs first though would it? mmm perhaps that wouldn't work then for vaccinating...

You might want to add that culling should be done in late summer, Autumn and early winter, not after Christmas anyway. Say, mid June to mid January. Very few cubs will be born in that period.

Keep going Betina, you are doing a great job, don't let my words slow you down!

posted 323 days ago Giorgi Akhalkatsishvili:

Save Me!

posted 323 days ago Giorgi Akhalkatsishvili:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0upnjA3jMo

posted 323 days ago Newt:

Thanks Betina,

Before I answer your questions, I am struck by the silence from others who I know are reading this and sending furious emails to each other - which is fine - but I'm unable to respond and I can't explain or discuss if I'm not part of the conversation can I?

I would like to explain how a vaccine like the BCG works and why being a failing vaccine is so important here. Please forgive me if you know all this (but read it anyway) or if I simplify it too much, but this is an important concept to grasp.

If you take small pox for example, that is officially gone now, but once upon a time it killed by the million. The host (us) was injected with cow pox, this was the vaccine. Our bodies reacted to cow pox, which didn't really affect us much, and produced antibodies that fought it, when the host was then confronted by small pox, the same antibodies were able to fight off the small pox before it got a hold. This is a live vaccine.

Obviously you can't inject a host with the disease itself or you just infect them and they might die anyway. It relies on using a very similar live organism that the body can't distinguish between that triggers the right antibodies, but doesn't kill. However the host is usually sick as it fights the vaccine. A good vaccine is very close to the disease it is intending to develop immunity to, but does not kill the host first and a really good one, hardly makes the host sick at all.

In the case of the BCG this is a live vaccine of a very closely related organism, but it isn't quite close enough. The host absorbs the BCG and this infection it fights and it builds ip immunity and then hopefully when it meets the bTB bacterium it can fight it.

In a failing vaccine, the host is vaccinated and develops antibodies, along comes the bTB bacterium and the host's own defences attack it if they recognise it and those bacteria are killed. But any bacterium it doesn't recognise go on to develop and multiply and spread. The recognised ones are killed, the unrecognised ones multiply.

Very soon the population of bacterium are all unrecognisable to the antibodies of the host. This is natural selection at work. The bacterium has mutated. The vaccine has failed.

It is unwise to vaccinate sick animals for several reasons, firstly, they may already be stressed (physically) by bTB which makes their ability to fight the vaccine organism harder and the immune response will be weaker. Secondly the bTB bacteria are already there in force and established and the host's immune system can't cope. Thirdly there will be so many bacteria present that the ones that don't respond well to the immune response to the vaccine, will reproduce rapidly and take over, they will multiply and spread.

In the case of a badger, the act of catching a badger and (perhaps) testing it first for bTB will be very stressful in itself, this will weaken the power of the vaccine to work, before you even start to consider the fact that the BCG is failing.

A similar thing is happening with the antibiotics used to fight human infection with bTB, the bacterium has mutated to beat those too. The current treatment plan is long and very painful I'm told and can take a patient out of their useful lives for month. More and more, this expensive treatment is failing and the patient dies.

Very, very, very soon we are going to lose the fight against TB. We are going to have destroyed any chance of the BCG working any more and when we can't fight the infection in the host, we are going to see people dieing in their millions as before, and with modern transport and cramped living and social conditions (like the tube in London), it will spread far quicker and harder than it did in Victorian times.

I am not trying to scare anyone, I am not trying to tell you some piece of science fiction, I am just trying to explain why scientists are genuinely frightened by the spread of TB and why we should never ever use a failing vaccine on infected animals.

I am frightened by all this anyway, we are not doing badgers any service by injecting sick badgers with the BCG, we are following the same stupid path of running away from the truth and pretending that evrything is alright or that some one else will come up with a magic cure.

Well not yet folks.

Let's stop kidding ourselves here, if we care about badgers let's get rid of this horrible disease now and yes, badgers are going to have to die, sorry but it is just that simple. The longer we leave it, the more will have to be killed.

I am trying very hard to compromise and take into account all your feelings, but it isn't me you are up against. Don't try and micro manage the professionals, they will do it their way anyway and just show you the door. If you want to have any input at all, YOU are going to have to compromise a long way, I can help, but not if you ignore me.

And no the last bit was not directed at you Betina, you are being brilliant.

posted 323 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

...respect and collaboration.

posted 323 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Re my suggestion on a compromise. I think, you lost me guys, Philip and Newt. - I don't understand. Philip, is it the words 'we recognise' you don't like? Then how about 'The current governmental approach in fighting against btb causes pain and disruption'....... I think what you say is, it's not the cull itself that causes pain and disruptions to farmers but the way the government chooses managing the situation, that the dysfunctions starts on governmental levels and then spreads. Let me know if I got it wrong. I guess controls, inspections and supervision, whatever its called, is an unpleasant time consuming inconvenience - but it's also very much about how its done and while btb is here we can't avoid these things, that's why it's even more important that it's done properly - with respect and

Listen, creating a common agreement is not easy - I definitely think it should be as honest as possible, we can't write between the lines - it's a dead end.

Newt, local people killing badgers, are you serious? I can't see many raised hands for that job. Also you asked earlier how we can vaccinate badger babies (sorry, can't remember the right word) you said they stayed in dens for about 6 weeks - but how are you going to kill them? It must be just as difficult - perhaps you will shoot their mothers and leave the babies to die? 

posted 323 days ago Newt:

Hi Philip

Sorry for the delay, it's hard to do this while making silage!

These are my words as a suggestion that you might want to use.

To clarify my own personal position and bearing in mind that I can only speak for myself in this, I have always been uncomfortable with some of the tactics used to enforce the proposed cull (use of balaclavas etc). Philip you have convinced me even more that if there is ever going to be a cull (and I believe that it will happen) then we need as many people locally to that cull on board, not just farmers, as we can for everyones sake.

You make it sound like a bribe though - you know, "vote for me and you'll get a free lunch", that sort of thing - no we're talking about loss of earnings aren't we? Not a payment for agreeing to do it. It seems somewhat unfair that the system "compensates" farmers and not anyone else - but that is because farmers are not currently compensated, they are just paid for the loss of the cow - and not fully then.

We all need to work together to attack M bovis, not each other. These words are just a suggested way forward, no one is being pressured or forced into agreeing to anything, but with these words we could start to heal some of the differences, that's all Betina and I are trying to do.

posted 324 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Newt

Thanks for the answer to that.

  Are these yur words newt, or are you quoting someone, "We recognise the pain and disruption etc.  If you are suggesting that those words be used by someone else, then that suggests to me that YOU recognise the pain and disrupton caused by TB control measures imposed on the whole rural population.

It's my view that this statement  suggests an acknowledgement by you ( and other farmers perhaps), that the culling of badgers as part of TB control measures causes pain and disruption and in spite of that those measures should continue and those who comply will be alright because they will be given aid and support.

If that is what you are suggesting then you have just demonstrated my point, you are suggesting what Elin Jones had been attempting, and you have confirmed for me that bTB eradication if it is to include killing badgers is a dysfunctional process.

Effectively what you are saying is: This will hurt, we know it will but we are going to continue, here's some money if you cooperate. If it isn't that then what is it, because if it is then it's flawed.

Please can you clarify your position.

posted 324 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

For the record, I can't speak on behalf of 'Save-me' so it's self-evident I will not include those words.

posted 324 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thank you Newt, Thank you. That's VERY useful and you express it so much better that I can ever dream of doing. I will change my draft and taking everything you say under consideration and put our agreement on a Thread. Perhaps others will add further comments.

posted 324 days ago Newt:

Philip

I agree and it could be useful, perhaps more so, to include the Entry and Higher Level Stewardship schemes. Go on...

Raindance

I totally agree with everything you say here and I'm with you 100 %.

Betina

I don't really know how to say this, except thank you.

On the "declaration of truth" you only really need to drop the word "truth" in Britain what we usually say is something like "I declare that the information that I have given is correct to the best of my knowledge..." because let's be honest everyone makes mistakes and especially on forms!

The point really behind all this is the wording of the part about culling.

I am here only to bring balance to your arguments, I don't want any of you to change your beliefs. So please let me suggest this as your campaign.

"We at the Save-Me organisation do not agree with any mass cull of badgers, but under very tight controls, we might consider the culling of animals that can be proved to have bTB if it is agreed that animals without bTB in the surrounding area are vaccinated."

I know that isn't your 10 point plan Betina, but the "tight controls" bit is broadly covered, let them work out the details and how they would implement them, because they would anyway and this way, it puts you on the inside working with the policy makers and not on the outside shouting at them - they might just listen then...

You could then make other recommendations about vaccinating cattle (which I personally think is a mistake) or about EU grants. But I would certainly speak out for not only farmers but the whole community and you might want to add something like...

"We recognise the pain and disruption caused by bovine TB control measures imposed on the whole rural population and urge the Government and the EU to provide more aid and support to individuals suffering hardship as a result of bTB who can clearly demonstrate that they are cooperating with the eradication of the disease."

Those are my suggestions as either part of your plan or as a stand alone statement of intent.

It is up to you all now.

Newt

posted 324 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Newt

Would you agree that the CAP and its reforms introducing the single farm payment scheme would play a part influencing farming policy and practice?

posted 324 days ago Raindance:

The more I read about Ms Jones, the more I am of the opinion that her “plans” were a scandal and an outrageous abuse of office. Men in balaclavas sounds suspiciously like the seeds of a tyranny. What on earth was she thinking?  

Well, I’ve been meditating with relish on what everyone has posted yesterday and today, and mining my file of notes.

One might reasonably conclude that the Government’s only approach to bTB is to cull badgers, but many millions of pounds have already been invested into the vaccination research programme, which is an indication of the seriousness with which it views this problem.The last Government set up a pilot programme of badger vaccination in hotspots, and the current administration announced, fairly early on in its term of office, that it favoured culling. Newt is quite right about BCG. The BCG vaccine against TB, the only one we have at present, is only about 80% effective when used on people at the right age and is almost useless in adults. It won't be any more effective in animals, although what I said about BCG in neonatal calves is documented fact. The truth is that viable vaccines won’t be available for some time, perhaps not for at least a few years. Delivery of vaccines is something that scientists and vets will have to decide on. I can’t imagine badgers lining up to have their jabs done. Trapping and vaccinating them one by one would be prodigiously difficult. Most of us who have pets will know that one of the best ways to get an animal to take medicine is mixed in food. 

The question is how could bTB be managed until that time? Slaughtering badgers appears to be a preferred response, but our Government has not made a definitive decision and whatever happens in Wales must have some bearing on the future in England. I can only imagine the distress that a farmer must feel when people shoot his animals – all that hard work and care is judged in a simple test and dispatched in the pull of a trigger.  And I won't even start on the subject of irreplaceable bloodlines in herds.

Betina’s multi-pronged approach looks good. I am cautious, though, partly because I am so by nature, and also because sometimes, even the best plans have unintended consequences, but I can’t see any  in those proposals. A comprehensive package of compensation must be a “given”, with robust safeguards to prevent fraud, in order to support our struggling farming industry. 

It’s difficult to find impartial information about this subject, but there’s a nice little website, that is informative and quite fun too: http://www.badgersandtb.com/ with interesting suggestions on ways forward. It looks as though it was written a little while ago, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t relevant.

One thing I have discovered, in the very short time (only a matter of months) that I have been trying to learn about animal welfare issues, is that there are lots of different groups dotted around the place on all sides of the fault lines. Each has a pool of knowledge. Much of that knowledge is the same, although each group might occasionally interpret it differently.

Perhaps what is required is a coming together of these groups, a sort of coalition, to find common ground and from there to develop a strategy for a way forward – pooling and distilling knowledge, finding out what is good and what may be discarded, what is fact and what is fiction, and finding adequate resources to combat this scourge. I am convinced that this situation requires vision, a strong will and a clear head on the part of our politicians. The worst thing is that governments and ministers come and go, and an election may toll the death knell for even the most well though-out strategy. If the EU won't allow vaccination, then it must be made to change its mind.  Government is meant to be the servant of its people, not the other way round.  

Sadly, none of us are decision-makers, nor do we necessarily have much influence, but we can lobby.

posted 325 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Lisa, It would be great. I'm wondering if anybody have done some experiments on that?

Newt, about my draft on a compromise, thank you for your input. You have not offended me and I will not offend you but I have to ask you to read it again, you might have looked at it with sunglasses, I think:) I also think you're swallowing a lot of elephants when you read my posts, so thank you for your effort in trying to be nice, I appreciate it a lot:)

My compromise is not about IF, it's about HOW. How can we join forces and fight the same fight? It was also an opportunity to think differently - how do we want it to be and what do we want to change so that both you and I could be happy?

About my 'Declaration of Truth', I understand it's an unpleasant thing, but I was being realistic, thinking that if UK recieved a big bag of money from EU they would insist on such a declaration. That said, my humble attempt in getting a compromise is based on what WE want, you, me, farmers, savers. Forget all about how it is now. The grant/donation we want is not like the present agricultural subsidy - the independent group performing 'disease preventive visits' can't be compared to what you have now. You may think, it's other words for the same but I meant it as, new words for something completely new. So if farmers really hate truth declarations, what would it take for them to look at it with friendly eyes and if they shouldn't sign anything, how could we avoid exploitations of the system and keeping a high health level.

You say that my no 5 is what is done now. So these 'disease preventive visits' I suggested (I'm sure is called something else) are they conducted by independant people? It's people from the government, right? What kind of people do you think would be best qualified to be in a 'disease preventive group'.

I recently bought a new bike - and I tell you, it can't be compared to the old worn out rattling and rusty nags I've been driving the last 15 years. I've even have a gearsystem now and they're making a smooth and spinning sound when I drive - it so much easier to drive now, even uphill! My compromise is about that, getting a new bike, that if we deside a compromise, something that we all would agree on, it would be so much easier to fight and our troop will double. That's what you want, right? Me too - and we could make so much more noise if that happend.

I think it will be very easy convincing a lot of people if the terms for a compromise can be accepted on both sides. In answer to your question: We would get the extra funding/grant/donation/relief aid from EU. Unless Greece is going bankrupt and creates a domino effect - then EU are RICH!

posted 325 days ago Lisa Patterson:

That's a really good idea, Bettina! In fact that is how many farmers worldwide have gotten rid of animal pests before - by slipping something in the food to make taste/smell bad without actually killing them. It's been done in the USA.

posted 325 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Hey, just had a thought. If badgers eat invertebrates from cow shit can't we feed cattle with something that comes out and repel the badgers -  so they would leave it?

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Newt

I'm back, false alarm, I'm expecting someone, but it wasn't the some one I'm expecting, if I go suddenly, then they have arrived... Not sure I understand that but I hope you do!

Philip

I have tried to understand your question, but in all honesty I don't...

I didn't mention cattle to badger transfer as I thought that was a given, you know, badgers eat invertebrates and to do so dig up cow pats and that's where they get it from and so on.

I have farmed organically (left the SA last year) and to high environmental and welfare standards for years and I live, in my opinion quite well with all my natural neighbours and  agree that we should move away from adverse environmental impact. And I agree that badger culling is basically wrong, a last resort and I wish we had a vaccine that worked, I just don't believe that the BCG is that vaccine, I would love to be wrong, I really would.

As for killing cattle I hate it, I really do, but at the present it is the best solution whether I hate it or not.

As for CAP reform isn't this yet another bad pattern? Each minister and each new administration want to muck about with it, personnally I'd do away with the whole damned lot! Stick 'em all on a space ship and blast them out into the cosmos! Joke! But isn't that like a cull of sorts? Aren't I then following the same pattern of wanting change?

So we get to your question. Perhaps it is because I'm stupid but I just don't understand what you're asking here. What has CAP got to do with a cull? I can see that they are related, but ...just not how one influences the other directly...Help me and I'll try and answer.

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Philip

Sorry we posted at the same time, but I haven't time to reply to your last just now.

I'll be back...

I get what your saying...

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Philip

On the final paragraph of your last piece, I totally agree. There is a lot wrong with farming for example and I have never pretended otherwise. There are good and bad in all walks of life and we all do thigs that we think make perfect sense, but which others think are daft.

Here's one pattern that I would like to question and would welcome your response. Why is it that when an intelligent person spends their life working doing a job and doing it well, someone with less knowledge and experience always comes along and assumes that they know better. And the question was in no way meant as personal but it could be that you are the one doing your job well and some idiot from WAG in a balaclava is the one who thinks he knows better! What do you think, is that pattern one that often repeats itself in your experience?

posted 325 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Newt,

I noticed in an earlier post that you were writing about how bTB spreads. You mentioned "Badger to cattle" and you mentioned "Cattle to Cattle". But you didn't mention the most obvious and the one that to quite a few is the most relevant. Bovine TB is a disease of cattle and badgers can get it too it seems. You didn't mention Cattle to badger.

You know, as well as I do, that environmental damage, and in this killing badgers is environmental damage, should never be used as a tool to suppress or prevent leakage of any nature from agriculture whether it be into other agriculture (cow to cow) or more widely into the environment. All of us in agriculture have been moving away from those sort of archaic practices for decades. Or at least that has been the intention.

However, when the government department that is responsible for protecting the environment and is responsible for ensuring that such leakage doesn't occur then advocates it so aggresively, it may raise questions about cattle and badgers but it also raises serious questions about the competence and integrity and then the further relevence of that government department, a department that is already under scrutiny and subject to changes for other reasons. The Rural affairs minister has gone now and has been replaced by somebody who immediately sets about doing something different. It follows that they would if the behaviour of that department was questionable. It's a very big message, unless one is blinkered or focused on other things.

One of the principle reasons it seems for not vaccinating cattle is that it would interfere with following test results. So why test them? Killing reactors perpetuates leakage, if it doesn't then prove that it doesn't.

It is EU legislation that prevents the use of vaccines though, which means that the TB eradication process, in a very fundamental way, is of European design. Your writings about how the disease is spread shows us that it spreads by following behaviour patterns and changes in behaviour of cattle and their handlers, and we already know this. As a cattleman if I bring my cattle into a building then that is my behaviour and I am controlling the behaviour of my cattle. In 2005 following 2years of preparation the single farm payment scheme came into being. A move away from production based subsidies which represents possibly the biggest single act of reformation in agriculture in all of Europe in over 4 decades ( more than a generation, which means that some within the industry would never have experienced any thing different).

It is the purpose of this common agricultural policy reform to inspire, initiate, encourage and then enable changes in the behaviour of farmers, money is a powerful incentive, for some, and so it succeeded. As we know within the first 6mths 98% of farmers in Wales had received their first payment, but in order for that to have happened the would have had to be scrutinised and qualified by defra. so defra knew that they were all going to qualify before it happened. It is reasonable to believe that within a very short period the behaviour of all farmers in Wales will change, some of those changes may be small and possibly unnoticable, but equally some of those changes would be large and obvious. For instance say; A dairy herd that by local standards is a large one increses in size by about 30%, that sort of thing. Incidentally, it is no coincidence, I believe, that the largest local herd breakdowns happened on some o the most dynamic farms ( "other patterns exist").  Either way those changes would occur because it is the purpose of this common agricultural reform to inspire changes etc. That happened in 2005 and by 2009 they were knocking on our doors with guns in their hands.

So I have a question;

It's a question that I have asked of others but as yet has gone unanswered it seems.

If it is the intention of WAG, Westminster, or indeed any individual, to kill badgers in order to try to eradicate bTB, by definition and by their design they will be applying the purposes and the consequences of the Common Agricultural Policy and its reform outside agriculture, into the environment, onto badgers and onto all of us. If, in those actions, that is not what they will be doing then can you explain how it is not what they will be doing?

It is my opinion that once again we have been witnessing and experiencing the consequenes of "Intervention". When intervention occurs, disenfranchisement takes place and everything is then undermined. 

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Philip

Thank you very much what you have written here explains the whole situation very clearly and I would like to think that I know you much better now.

I am so sorry for the trouble that all of this has caused you and people like you and yes I do get exactly where you are coming from, and yes I did know that the trouble in your case was backed up by the police and I agree totally that does not make it any better - quite the opposite in fact.

This is a very tricky situation for both sides and sadly the police are stuck in the middle, they are not there to take sides but to keep the peace and permit government appointed officials doing their job. Trust me I am on your side, I witnessed the same thing in Foot and Mouth. At the start of FMD a neighbouring farm (who had made illegal transports of livestock after the movement ban started) was taken out with alleged FMD. It was before the contiguous cull. From that the start of March until the end of September we were on "house arrest" with a D notice except for one day, through no fault of ours. At the end of FMD we were one of the last farms to be a suspected outbreak and we had a DEFRA vet for three days stationed on our farm.

Trust me, I know very well exactly how you feel. We never had anyone wearing a balaclava but there again we submitted and cooperated to with the army and the defra officials.

On the first inspection in FMD we had a right arrogant so and so from Defra. I took her to a small flock of twenty sheep I had in three field in the next village, right in the heart of an FMD "hotspot". On arrival I asked if I should use Mac my sheep dog to round them up for her to inspect them.

"Of course," she replied, "I have the necessary injection with me."

Thinking this to be a vaccine or something I asked what she meant.

"To put it down," she replied calmly taking out a needle and a bottle from her boot. Surprised by my reaction she turned to me and said,"well he can't leave here, if we use him he has to stay here. Oh alright you can tie him up somewhere..."

I gathered the sheep myself and kept the dog in my vehicle

.Sometimes the rules make no sense at all, or at least I can see the logic, it just defies common sense! The tactics used by those employed by WAG were very baddly thought through and quite indefensible, and I don't wish to do that at all. But in my experience, which is quite broad, whenever confronted by officials or police officers, I just comply. It does not pay to argue or try and reason too much, but sometimes you have to question their authority and you clearly did the right things, much as I would have done in your shoes!

I'm pleased for you that the weight has been lifted, even if tempory. If they return I would advise you to cooperate, you can be unhelpful and surly as you like, but don't get angry and don't lose your temper or you will be in more trouble than you deserve.

Take care,

Newt

posted 325 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Betina,

I'll explain my earlier contribution;

The incidence of bTB here near where I live showed marked increases between approx 2006 through to 2008 roughly speaking. Elin Jones AM, Rural affairs minister as she was then announced, after having her ears bent by some very angry farmers here, that they, The Welsh Assembly Government, were going to Kill all badgers here in North Pembrokeshire in what was to become known as the Intensive Action Area.

In order to achieve that however she had to change the law, which she did, and fairly soon after that we, along with our neighbours, recieved a letter from the Welsh Assmbly explaining what was going to happen. That is, They were to come here with a team of men to identify and mark burrows that they believed to be badger setts, they did this with the intention to return at a later date with the intention to trap and then shoot any badgers that they caught. All this was explained in the letters. Along with these instructions we were told that if we interfered with or challenged these men in any way, we would be breaking the law and subject to arrest, if we photographed them or their vehicles we would be breaking the law and subject to arrest. The letter asked for a reply in which we were asked to say whether we would stop the men by saying no. We were told that if we said no then we were effectively considered as hostile to the cull and would be treated accordingly. Quite quickly we were to discover from others that this meant that the men would arrive wearing full face balaclavas, so that it was not possible to identify them, and they would arrive with a police escort. Had they not been stopped by the Badger Trust challenge then they would have returned with traps and guns to kill badgers. And there was nothing that we could do to stop them, as individuals and as householders. That happened in the spring of 2010. they came here to identify setts, but they didn't return. We weren't to discover why the didn't until after the challenge from the Badger Trust had been successful so we were left waiting for these masked men to turn up with their traps and guns for about three months. 

When a potential customer of ours phones up and the first question they ask is, "are you in the area where they're killing badgers" then it's pretty reasonable to believe that they are going to consider the answer when they make their decision on whether to sign the contract. Then when they say sorry, no can do, or just don't confirm either way, then business is gone. Wouldn't you say?

Then in the autumn 2010 the Welsh Assembly announced that they were going to have another go. So the threat reappeared, and we were faced with the prospect of the whole thing repeating itself.

I don't look after cattle, their are no livestock here, we don't farm, we do have some mature woodland, some new tree plantations, all in a larger than average garden, and our business interests are reliant upon the balance of nature here being what it is, as is our quality of life, but most importantly killing badgers is illegal,it's unethical, it's immoral, it would be happening right under my nose and their would have been nothing that I could have done here to stop it.

So because of this unsolicited, nonconsensual intrusion into our home, then yes the Welsh Assembly violated our human rights, you got it.

After we realised that The Badger Trust had stopped them the first time, and WAG were coming at us again, I decided to put pen to paper, and after a lot of thought finished up with my analysis, but I didn't know quite how best to position it, who to show it to, I sought advice, got going and much of the rest is history.

And so to the most recent update; Yesterday we received a letter from the Welsh Assembly Government. They've told us that they are not going to kill badgers.

Newt ,

So you see I think that you misunderstand, The police were their back-up.

My understanding, as in the analysis that I wrote, is what got me through it. It was Elin Jones who initiated what happened, yet it was she who set up the consultations. The whole thing has dysfunction written right through it. She had created a situation that meant that ordinary responses, the ones that they wanted to receive, would be pretty ineffective, so I saw that it was necessary to act out of the ordinary and do something different. The threat was (is) to badgers not to me, and then you don't complain about having your rights taken away to the person who is doing it, I don't actually know even now whether anything that I wrote worked but that doesn't matter,  they've decided that they're not going to kill badgers, and I know that I did my best, and I'm pretty sure that there are a lot of other  people who did too. 

As for bTB, Most people are looking at badgers, and have been for a very long time. But other patterns exist! And if you are trying to fix a problem and are ignoring or disregarding patterns then there is a possibility that you'll fail.

posted 325 days ago mark williams:

Newt,

Not at all, it’s good that we have this freedom to talk just so, sorry for any unintended sarcasm. Constructive building will stop the roof falling in for us all, no matter how small our bricks. I have just finished taking in the short film you suggested, we will have to think on it.

Good night.

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Sorry folks, got to go...

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Mark, Hi,

I am sorry but I do keep putting people right don't I. I am the most appalling, arrogant, opinionated, self rightous...well you don't need me to tell you that!

Cattle in sheds. Cattle in direct contact with infected cows pick up bTB from direct contact. Going back to that whole confusing experiment that we got all mixed up with before, it showed that aerosol borne microbes were not spreading bTB. The scientists would not believe this at first as this is exactly what does happen in human to human transfer. So someone else has repeated the experiment elsewhere and got the same results.

Mark perhaps you have made a very good suggestion and UV lights may help suppress the spread of the bacterium. However, this is less likely in the case of one cow licking another, to be delicate, you know, privately. This is common in for example cows on heat...do I need to be more explicit? Then there are other ways of being in direct contact that might spread the disease, but which an UV light might help prevent transference of bacterium.

But I repeat, least you forget, most new bTB cases in herds where it hasn't happened before, are found after the cattle come in from grass for the summer and autumn. Which is what lead to the discovery of bTB in badgers in the 1970's.

I hope this helps explain,

Newt

posted 325 days ago Newt:

Thanks Raindance.

Betina

You are fantastic! If it were up to you and I, the problem would be sorted!

In principle I agree with all you've said; I will reply to each comment/suggestion in turn with my own views and we can compare if you like. Many of these points that I'm about to make are just tinkering around the edges of your suggestions, in an attempt to consider other angles that you may have forgoten or not seen (I hope you don't mind).

1. This ia a good rule and in a perfect world I would go further and say that each badger should be tested for bTB and vaccinated and released if free of the disease and culled if really ill. The problem with this is that you wouldn't get every badger, some would be perturbed and the test is difficult because the skin test doesn't work - but this is basically what they were doing with the Krebs experiments, remember where 40 % of all the traps were interfered with and 12 % stollen? They proved it was possible to do, but that is was very expensive - would government spend the extra money? NO probably not. Would farmers? Definately not it isn't there no matter how hard you look! Perhaps there's room here for some other group to raise funds for this course of action - I'll leave that thought hanging...

Then there is the problem of what do you do with the majority of badgers that might have bTB in the infected area, but which seem perfectly healthy. Are they still spreading infection or might they start to? Vaccination won't help them and they might actually recover from the disease, some badgers do. You could let them go, but that would be irresponsible and under UK law that might make the person who made that descision liable for costs if that animal went on to infect some one or some other animal - like a race horse for example. That might cost millions!

2. I would agree that vaccinating badgers and cattle would be a good idea as soon as possible except that the cattle would then have to slaughtered anyway. This would unfortunately be necessary because the skin test could not then tell the vaccinated animals apart from untested ones and they could not risk allowing bTB infected cattle to spread the disease around. So in the case of cattle, the system we currently have, although horrible is the best available, even if it does need tweaking.

However if we get a new vaccine that works, and overcomes these problems then that is the best answer without any doubt. Absolutely beyond any question IF...

3. This is one that I most agree with; unfortunately we have to recognise that there have been abuses of the system in the past and for example the people best equiped to offer such valuations tend to be agricultural auctioneers - mmmm the least I say about that the better, but....

4. This declaration of truth idea (may-be it is a problem with your English, which is excellent by the way, or a cultural thing, so I need to tread carefully here, least I offend you or them) but this might really upset farmers. Most farmers live by very old fassioned codes of honesty and to question their honesty would be really offencive. That said, DEFRA do it every day with every form. As we've discussed elsewhere, that's what the whole Single Farm Payment and grants and subsidies is all about. Basically they offer your business grants and help, but in exchange you have to sign a declaration that you have been honest (if you want to call it that) and if you haven't, they expect repayment with interest and may fine you as well. But the present government want to do away with all this as does the EU.

5. I don't see this as a problem, this is what is done now.

6. This is certainly true, but help from the EU, this government usually end up paying for anyway, so they tend to block it.

7. This seems fair to me, but DEFRA already control this sort of thing and wouldn't accept others coming in I wouldn't have thought

8. This is what is supposed to happen now with subsidies, but the rich powerful landlords can always find a way around it, as they own 90 % of the surface area of the UK now, they will always try and find a way around it and can afford to employ the best able people to do it.

9. As we've just found out Betina, this is true now too!

10. I totally agree and would go one step further and ask people on all sides not to break the law. Protest yes, and argue your point yes, but break the law no. It is never right for any of us to take the law into our own hands and that includes all farmers too, before everyone here jumps! Some of the actions of some farmers, whether eartag swapping or sending the wrong animal to slaughter or shooting badgers is just not acceptable and neither is interefering with traps or some of the other things that have gone on from others too - so lets all be honest shall we? That's what we need most isn't it? Honesty.

For my part Betina I would welcome your proposals, but I'm no one; the real questions are who can we convince to support us? And where is the extra funding going to come from...?

But count me in...Betina for president of the EU I say!

posted 325 days ago mark williams:

Thanks raindance, I had no idea i'm no big reader on the bible. But i was worried about cattle shut up inside cattle sheds with little natural light and low ventilation. But perhaps newt will put me right later.  

posted 326 days ago Raindance:

That's very good, Mark - about our shield and sword, and a nice twist on the shield of faith and the sword of the Spirit in Ephesians 6.

Newt, I'm sorry about your hay, and hope the weather improves soon and stays fine for you to get it in. If you have time, just take a look at "contact" in the main part of Brian's site - there's a link to there at the end of this page.  There now, I think that's an ace ball just landed on your side of the court and it's well "in"; it's up to you where you bat it.  I'm off. I have no hay to cut, but I must be up and doing.

posted 326 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thanks Newt for trying to meet me somewhere half way. I've been thinking hard too and have been working with this most of the night. At 3.30 UK time I had to leave it to get sleep. First I had to ask myself if I could compromise on killing badgers at all and I must admit that if a badger are found having a visible outbreak of the disease I think the most humane thing would be to put him down. But that's it! Making compromises usualy means getting a little and sacrificing a lot (!), but I'm not quite willing to go that far, my views on what is humane prohibits me from doing just so. My mind took me in another direction - I was thinking of all those problems orbiting around the disease itself. One of the major problem are devastating fear for the future and a feeling of powerlessness within the farming community. So I asked myself, how can we make farmers feel more safe and making them want to fight with us. I came up with this. I may have missed essential parts of the whole situation - but I've not done that deliberately, only by ignorance or simpel oblivion. Please feel free to comment and add suggestions, work on it with me, will you? (And sorry for the grammar errors)

A suggestion of:

A compromise between farmers who support culling badgers and the opponents, who's against killing badgers such as animal welfare groups and its supporters, farmers and all other private individuals

1. No badger can be killed in the fight against btb as long as there's other options, such as vaccinating, regardless if vaccination only provides from 50 percent chances of protection against btb. Also, this rule can be overruled if a badger is found with an outbreak of btb and therefore is visibly ill and suffering.

2. As soon as it's possible cattle and badgers must be vaccinated against btb regardless if vaccination only provides from 50 percent of protection against btb.

3. To secure farmers against being deprived of their means of subsistence and their business when their herds must be culled because of btb, they should be given a fair compensation based on the real value of the loss. The real value should be estimated by an independent person with no govermental strings attached.

4. To avoid speculation, to recieve compensation and to maintaining a high level of health and welfare for farm animals , it's essential that farmers signs a declaration of truth. Signing the 'Declaration of Thruth' also imply acceptance of having frequently 'disease preventive visits' conducted by other independent persons with no governmental strings attached. Regarding farms in or close to outbreak areas, the frequently 'disease preventive visits' may increase.

5. The decision on culling herds rest on both the outcome of a 'disease preventive visit' and one other authority.

6. In achieving a btb-free status, the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland need help. Those agreing in this compromise believes that the European Union can be the best provider of helping out. To put it short - UK need money to fight btb and its consequenses. Consequenses which not only include the death of thousands of cattle and other livestocks but also wildlife, the farming communities, farmers and their family and the economy of the country suffers tremendously.

7. The granted money will be used on fair compensations, vaccination programmes and vaccination development for cattle and badgers. An independent group to conduct 'disease preventive visits' should assemble of 3, 5 or 7 people with citizenship comming from countries within the EU. Sustaining such a group calls for creation of btb-ambassador positions stationed in UK. They will recieve salery from the granted money provided by EU. Btb-ambassadors must not have governmental connections.

8. To secure the compensation reaches the right pockets, it has to be given to the person in charge of a livestock and farm that suffers financially from the consequences of btb. It doesn't matter if the person owns or rents the land. A person in charge refering to the farmer that owns and works with herds and are living off livestock farming as a profession.

9. The total budget should be open for every one to see to avoid any flaws and unreasonable cost.

10. We urge every person involved in the fight for eradicating btb from british soil to act respectfully, non-violently, unarmed and well articulated.

Everyone who agree on these terms of a compromise will join hands and forces in the fight agains btb. We will unite in the hope of getting visible to reach EU asking them to help us in our fight against btb and it's immeasurable consquences.

Betina

posted 326 days ago mark williams:

That is indeed an inspirational story newt,

If only everyone would get involved with the fight but killed nothing. I’m sure we would soon win this war. With bravery and intellect our shield and science our sward we could be heroes.

posted 326 days ago mark williams:

Hi newt,

Sorry for running out on you yesterday however I had to leave in a hurry, I was in danger of running late. I’m using my partner’s pc as she is in the shower at the moment. It took quite a while to catch up with all your threads such great activity here. Thank you for explaining all this to us and I can’t wait to watch the video you suggested. It would be best to get back to you when done.

But out of interest you say you keep cattle in doors in the winter months. What lighting do you use? Does this light have a high ultraviolet component? As you say TB takes hold in the winter months when UV level is low.

posted 326 days ago Newt:

Back again and I bet you aren't even up yet! The forecast is now no longer fit for hay making so I hope to grab a few acres of sillage bales before it gets wet through, but the long grass in the meadows is far too wet to mow yet. There is a fine roe buck in my meadow this morning, he's beautiful, but too tame, if he stays near the road some moron with a gun will take him!

Anyway I digress; in the hope of inspiring you, can I tell you a story (Mitch it might seem at first not to be relevant but please go wiith it).

At the start of World War One there was a man who is a great hero of mine who was a vicar. He believed passionately as many people here believe, that "Thou shalt not kill!" However as war started he desperately tried to join the army as an army chaplain. They would not take him however because he was in his fifties and they thought him too old. By 1916 the war was in full swing and humans were killing each other on a scale never seen before and those killed included chaplains, so short of enough vollunteers they let him join and eventually he was sent to the front. In 1918 at the age of 56 he died as a result of the injuries he had received in the course of the many battles that he had been in.

I am not aware of this vicar ever having fired a gun at anyone, so how is it that we know so much about him, and I would recommend that each of you who is inspired by this story look him up on google. His name is the Rev. Theodore Bayley Hardy VC; DSO; MC.

Rev. TB Hardy VC; MSO; MC won the Victoria Cross, the Distinguished Service Order and the Miltary Cross for acts of extreme bravery on the battle field. These acts all involved him in attempts to rescue men who had fallen in battle, while under heavy enemy fire, if he was unable to rescue men, he would stay at their sides ministering to them until either they died or help came, oblivious of the huge danger that he himself was in and on several occaisions he was the last man to leave the battle field.

You don't have to be involved in killing yourself to be a hero and do the right thing.

posted 326 days ago Newt:

Good morning everyone,

I have just read through your posts. This is brilliant, outstanding, this is all I ever wanted to do by visiting you here, I don't want to change anyone's mind, I just wanted to talk frankly and openely. Only then can we let the truth out.

Brian,

I am so sorry, I got all you all wrong. I could blame the press and say that they have presented (at least in the few places I go) me with a false image of you. But it isn't their fault entirely, because I know that the press spin everything, I've seen this so many times before and have been the victim myself - but of course not on the scale you are!

Philip

The same is true for you, I have been threatened and attacked, actually quite recently, during lambing. They don't actually resort to physical attack any more, like any bullies they can't take it back. But they've tried every kind of low down, dirty trick that their feeble little brains can come up with and sometimes you have to go to the police - but they can't do much or won't - the rest of the time you have to ignore it. Of course it isn't right, but remember this, there will always be good people out there on your side. I'm lucky, I have some very good friend and when I needed it most they helped and they had good friends who helped too and some of them were very powerful. Good luck. I really mean that.

Raindance

I missed your input, thanks.

Betina,

You asked the question, let me answer it.

That is the main question here - how can we all live with a solution that some of us don't agree with.

The answer is of course - if it works.

Vaccination

This is to all of you as individuals as friends and together. I totally and most honestly agree from the very bottom of my heart - vaccination is the best option in the long run.

The problem is that the BCG is a failing vaccine.

The simple truth of this is that it is not going to work much longer.

Perhaps it will work enough to do the job, I really, really hope that that is true. The National Trust and the Badger Trust are rolling out their plans and whether we like it or not, we will all soon be able to see the result. The problem with that, is that in this case the "soon" is going to be 5 years down the line and the results are going to be a slight reduction in numbers (at best). Hopefully it will lead to better.

We, every farmer that I know and have discussed this with, and that's quite a few, need help now. The economy is picking up and prices over the last six months have been fantastic - we have actually been paid what we were getting twenty years ago and that is - oustandingly better than a year ago, so when I say help, money is a part of it, but by no means all.

We need help because as a people we are on our knees and everyone seems to enjoy kicking us while we're down. Some people see the badger as the enemy because society wants to protect them while they kick us and they seem to think we hate badgers. We don't, well not the majority. Most of us love seeing them and I absolutely don't know a single farmer that would want to see everyone dead. Some - like me - welcome healthy badgers on our farms as our best friends and allies against bTB.

Sorry I'm rambling...

Raindance is quite right, they are developing a new vaccine. I expect that there are many labs going flat out for one. They'll make a fortune if it works!

But here's the thing...they said an effective vaccine was just around the corner in the 1980s. In the 1990's they said it was 5 years away. Two years ago they said it was 2 years away. Recently I read an article that said it was 10 years away. I've also read recently that it was 8 years away.

We don't believe them anymore, but we do know one is coming - can we last out?

No.

The badger trust tell us that the average life of a badger is 5 years (perhaps, but I've known a badger for 8 years) they tell us that a badger with bTB might only live for a year and from this they expect vaccination to start having results in in 5 years.

Okay

Perhaps one of you can explain to me, IF we had a vaccine that worked, how would you get it to baby cubs in the sett?

A badger cub can stay underground for 6 weeks before it first comes up. Whether the other badgers in the sett are vaccinated or not, if some are infected, the bedding will be infected.

When we vaccinate sheep using a tenuated vaccine, some immunity passes to the lambs in the collostrum and this works briefly for the lambs, but every shepherd knows that this is only a brief immunity and six weeks is a long time, most won't expect any vaccine to last that long, just on the mother's milk - if they did, they would see a lot of dead lambs! But that is with a good vaccine that works. The BCG is a failing vaccine.

No matter how hard you try and tell any farmer that something will work, if he has tried something similar and it hasn't worked he won't believe you.

The ring culling of badgers in the 1970/1980's came so close to working. We were bTB free briefly in 1985. The they stopped doing it against the advice of a few "extremists for the NFU". They protected the badger and I helped fight for that and it has come back like a rocket, from hotspots where badgers were also infected.

We know that the ring culling worked, we don't know that vaccinating with the BCG will work, because it is a failing vacine.

When the next vaccine comes brilliant.

It looks like you are winning the argument and with every atom of my body I hope you are right and what have you got to lose if you're wrong? What if it doesn't work?

We could lose evrything. So could the badgers.

What ever we do some badgers will die. Whether we vaccinate or not - but the longer we leave the cull, the bigger it will have to be. Sometimes we have to do something we hate.

And let me be clear, I have killed enough in my life to know, that I absolutely never want to kill anything again, ever.

Ever.

Sometimes you just have to.

But no matter what happens, I have met some really nice people here and I really hope we can be friends and friends stick by each other even when they disagree, that's what friends are.

Take care, if I don't get back to you, it is only because I have hay to cut if the weather will hold long enough.

Newt

posted 326 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Philip, Pardon me for sounding very ignorant, but I don't understand all the troubles taken place in your home. Are you speaking of a previously badger cull approved by WAG? Why have they acted so rudely as if you had commited a crime. What was the guns for? I don't understand? 

It sounds like a raid on drugs which it wasn't and so they have violated your human rights. 

Brian, Very well put. I truly hope he (Newt) will discuss things further with you outside this forum.  

posted 326 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Newt

Thank you for the comments, and I would agree with you that my analysis "skips over the issues" with regard the vaccine. I  didn't look at any of the issues with regard cattle vaccines because my analysis is not designed to look for a solution."Vaccinate the cattle arrives as common sense because the first consequence, before anything else happens, is that as a cattleman you would then have back the healthcare of your livestock, and then we could all leave you to it! There are many ways to change the process, and there are many ways to step out of it too.

 You see we may have similar pasts but more recently I have been doing different things.  And that for a very straight forward reason. I stopped joining in with them, and I did that because it became very necessary for me to take responsibility for the consequences of my actions, I found that I couldn't do it as I was so I took the necessary steps with immediate results.

Now here I am back on the bus, against my will. this bacterium that is affecting your cows, or threatening to affect them and you want my support yet your politicians and vets have threatened my business to the point of closing, They started out by diminishing me, undermining me in my home, my family and my business, they came into my home with an intention to do damage and to return with guns in their hands, wearing full face balaclavas,they preceded this with letters to tell us that they were coming, and in those letters they told us that if we challenged them in any way we would be breaking the law, they told us that if we interfered with them we would be breaking the law, they told us that if we photographed them or their vehicles we would be breaking the law. This is in my home. and at the time they didn't even know if there were any badgers here, and given my further experiences they still don't.

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't make me a victim of anything, I'm saying these things to give a true perspective, you see we stopped the proposed badger cull and we did it with a lot of help from our friends to whom we are very grateful, but that's not the only thing that we stopped. 

 I didn't write it as part of an argument or to try and persuade anyone to see things my way, my intention was just to show my view, and to show it as effectively and as widely as possible, it's the choice of the readers to draw their own conclusions. So thanks for your response, it appears that I have succeeded. 

posted 326 days ago Brian May:

Many thanks, Newt. I agree entirely. And I appreciate both your candour and your generosity. I know I have been portrayed as a pariah by the Farming Press - but of course that is an easy option for them. Actually I did make a commitment to the farming community right back at the beginning of my involvement with this issue - to Stephen James, when I visited his home at his kind invitation, so I could better understand the issues from a dairy farmer's point of view. I remain very respectful of his position, and I feel morally obliged to work towards the elimination of bTB. To be honest, there was never any doubt about this. I'm sure some of my comments, taken out of context, can be used to discredit my position - and it's hard not to occasionally slip up when everything you say is held up to public scrutiny. But, since I first read all the evidence on bTB, I have been absolutely convinced that culling badgers, if it's allowed to go ahead, will not only fail utterly to solve the farmers' problems, but very probably make them worse. I've actually emphasised, in many of the interviews that I've done, that my advocacy of vaccination as a solution is not just a human and ethical solution to the problem. As a scientist, it's actually blindingly obvious to me that vaccination is the ONLY solution available. If we want to have a countryside free of tuberculosis in 20 years time, vaccination is the only way. And it must be done in combination with better testing and better movement controls of livestock. Vaccination accompanied by pockets of slaughter of wildlife is NOT an option supported by any scientific evidence whatsoever ... and it amazes me that it still appeals. I can only think that the extremists among farming leadership have managed to appeal to that intuitive 'Wild-West' mind-set, of 'let's go out and kill the damn things' - as kind of sop. It's the old principle of pinning misfortunes on a scapegoat, and then whipping all the guys up to go out and lynch him. This seems to be thebone that's been thrown to ordinary decent the farmers, to make them feel 'something is being done'.

I'm now hearing from more and more farmers who are no longer convinced.

I take this very seriously, Newt, and I'm serious about being willing to discuss it openly. I'm in this for the long haul, and I believe the benefits will be for all our grandchildren.

If the humane solution is adopted, and the path of vaccination is adopted, I give you my word I will stand shoulder to shoulder with the farming community to eradicate our common enemy. And I will be right with you in improving the eco-friendliness of all industries. Right in the forefront of my mind will be that every creature matters.

Cheers

Brian

posted 326 days ago Raindance:

Newt,

I am so pleased to read Brian's reply to you, and hope you will have that drink together soon.

I stepped in here once or twice earlier today to see who was about; it's really good to read such thoughtful and reflective posts.

That was a fascinating film and thank you for sharing it with us. I would like many people to view it so that they can be informed about bTB, what it is, how it spreads and the devastating impact it has on cattle and badgers alike.

That said, I couldn't support, at this stage, slaughtering badgers. This method of controlling the spread of bTB may appear to work, but does it really work in the long run? I was reading, just yesterday evening, an account of a farmer who has killed over a hundred badgers on his land. His herd of cattle is clear of bTB - but just for now. What happens next when the bacterium, which lives on in the earth where infected badgers have been, is picked up by the cattle? 

I am convinced that developing an effective vaccine is the way forward, and perhaps two vaccines - one for cattle and an oral one for badgers.  

You alluded earlier to BCG.  The Jenner Institute, which I mentioned earlier, has been working precisely on the use of human BCG in protecting cattle against bTB. The Institute has found that BCG provides "a significant level of protection against bTB [in neonatal calves]. We are currently investigating how long this immunity lasts and why neonates are protected more effectively than adult cattle." So there is worthwhile work being done and it is funded by DEFRA.  

Research of this type is commercially sensitive, but there is enough information available on the Institute's website to give at least an indication of the direction in which its scientists are travelling. Sadly, the development and testing of vaccines can take years, and costs crazy money.  We can only hope that the scientists achieve their goals soon.  

I acknowledge that, in the meantime while we wait, farmers, cattle and badgers are suffering.  I don't have answers for this. 

posted 326 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Ok, Newt, Think about it.

Oh, and it wasn't meant to sound sarcastic in any way. Take those words literally and try figuring out something - I'll try too.

Is a compromise possible?

posted 326 days ago Newt:

Betina,

You have a lovely way of getting to the heart of the issue and the simple answer to your question is I really, honestly, don't know!

There is no simple answer; perhaps we may never agree. I have found in my life that sometimes people just never agree on something, no matter how hard we try - is that wrong?

No I don't think it is. What is wrong is fighting endlessly and keeping going to the next level when actually sometimes we should just agree to disagree.

But here's the thing, if we stand on either side of the fence hurling abuse at each other, then you can be sure that we will never agree.

When it is all over (which might take a very long time is the politicians keep stalling and pontificating) we are all just people, we take away with us only what we allow ourselves to take, if that is hatred and resentment, anger and bitterness, then that is all we have, it defines us.

What if we just parted as friends? knowing that each of us did what we believed in, but at the end of the day, others will make the ultimate choice and we will have to live with the consequences.

I will try and be a bit more constructive another day, but with the weather about to break, who knows when that will be, but perhaps tomorrow morning while the rest of you are tucked up in bed, I'll have something better to add.

Take care,

Newt

posted 326 days ago Newt:

Philip

I have just read through your report and I am very impressed, I think that you have thought very deeply, long and hard and the points that you make are fair ones. In truth much of it is absolutely correct and once again I see that there is so much that the two of us have in common.

Unfortunetely where your arguments are incomplete, they are not wrong in themselves , but where they are incomplete is that bTB is caused by a bacterium, not by human behaviour of any kind. So while I totally agree that there are some aspects of human behaviour that absolutely do make the situation worse and you hint at some of those and quite clearly identify some others, we can't get away from the fact that the disease is caused by a bacterium and that it is in the badger population and that is crossing over into cattle and back and forth.

So I agree with what you say here, but there is a lot more that you haven't said. And I'm sorry but they won't let us vaccinate cattle because at the moment the risks far outweigh the benefits with the vaccine that we currently have IMO.

Actually your piece completely skips over all the issues with the vaccine which is a shame really. I would love to know how deeply you have studied the vaccine.

Please don't take my criticism personally, I do agree with much of what you say, which is a start, I hope!

Take care,

Newt

posted 326 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Hi Betina,

I've only just got back here from last night and have just been catching up. I've had a look at you thread; The Very best solution, Vaccinate the Cattle.

See you there with my first thoughts so far although I may be brief jus now I look forward to continuing and explaining my theories.

posted 326 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Newt, You keep on saying we should work together on getting rid of btb, you and me, savers and farmers. It's a great idea and so much better than fighting. So how can we work together when you want to cull badgers and I want to vaccinate them? Where is the center, the spot we could meet each other and where we, when we split up and continue our lives, both would be happy about a common agreement?

posted 326 days ago Newt:

Try

http://www.bovinetb.info/videos/a_way_forward/index.php

Honestly it is a very good short film, it puts both the vaccination and culling sides forward and you need to watch it all the way through to get a real sense of what they are talking about. Half an hour or so well spent.

posted 326 days ago Newt:

Sorry that should be Dr. J. Gallagher.

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Mark,

I take it from your lack of reponse you're waiting, sorry.

Okay according to the veterinary pathologist Dr Gallager, all different species of mammals react differently to bTB. In humans, we usually pass TB in the air. This is because it infects the lungs and when we cough the sputem is sent into the air and passes from one person to another especially in crowded condition ie a Victorian slum or in the Underground in London.

In badgers bTB tends not to have a very great affect and the animal can often carry it for  long time before it manifests itelf. Then it causes small lesions through out the body. It also often infects the kidneys. This is very important IMO because Gallager then calculated that a badger may contain millions of bacteria within its bladder. These small lesions are quite literally rips in the flesh.

As badgers pass through fields they often scent mark or stop to wee. They can do this anywhere in a field and it is not confined to their normal latrines. But fortunately the bacteria is easily killed by UV light and the urine is diluted by rainfall, otherwise we would be faced with a total melt down in all mammal populations in the wild.

Cattle come along and graze the grass and bingo.

This is badger to cattle infection.

Cattle to cattle infection ocurrs when cattle eat soiled hay or forage or interact in social grooming; cows often lick each other quite a lot as part of their daily social activity.

It should be noted here that cases of bTB in cattle herd rise in the autumn, as the cattle are brought in for winter housing and stay more steady over the winter months. This indicates (counter to your assumptions Mark) that more cattle pick up bTB in the summer months than they do in winter months. This may or may not be because of badgers, they may also pick up infection from infected cows urinating on pasture.

Basically however you can not tackle bTB without dealing with both main hosts, cattle and badgers.

One last point, the current skin test used on cattle does not work on badgers, they do not trigger an immune response in the same way, so it is much harder to identify bTB in badgers.

Hope this helps.

Newt

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Would it help for me to explain badger to cattle infection? Or at least my understanding of it based on reading.

posted 327 days ago Newt:

As to your last ( I think we keep posting at the same time) no not at all.

The experiment was on cattle to cattle transmission. I did not mention badgers. It did not assess where the orriginal bTB came from and it is perfectly reasonable to say that it could have come from any of several sources.

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Mark,

Yes I agree, the experiment was to show how the disease is passed in cattle, actually what I didn't mention and should have (sorry) is that cattle house together in the same area did pick up the infection from each other. One assumes that the living conditions in the experiment were very high. Actually i can confirm that, because I have seen film of the sheds involved and they went to great trouble to make sure many variables like living conditions were taken into account.

Basically I agree with your observations and conclusions, but not with the assumption that housing and conditions are the main reason for bTB infection in cattle.

posted 327 days ago mark williams:

I guess in human terms it would be like leaving a group of humans out in the rain until they all had flu. Then bring them in doors where there were a similar group that stayed in watching tv all this time. then after 12 mouths apotheosising that it was the badger that gave the flu to the first group on test. I think a kinda garden student could pick holes in this work.   

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Mark,

Actually my last post was unfair as it didn't really reply to your question, did it?

Okay try this, yes some farms are managed terribly, I don't wish to be associated with or defend any cruel or unfit conditions, however it is often assumed, unfairly IMO that all or at least most are like that. This is most unfair and simply not true, if animals are kept in really poor conditions, then they don't perform well and mortallity rises rapidly. Such units are most unprofitable so would not survive long (one hopes) there are exceptions.

If you get wet in the rain, do you get a cold? Only if exposed to the virus, but getting "chilled" might increase the risk. So it is with TB, you can't pick it up just by living in poor conditions or by being unhealthy. However if exposed to the bacterium, poor health, lower immunity and poor living conditions will promote its spread.

Is that a more complete answer?

I hope so.

posted 327 days ago mark williams:

Hi newt,

well perhaps the infected cattle were housed badly, malnourished or stressed prier to being housed and looked after in a fit manor. This allowed the pathogen to take hold. However the healthy cattle being looked after in a proper way throughout stayed in the clear. This does not seem to be a well thought out experiment.   

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Poppy

Politics is a dirty business and quite frankly I don't trust any of them! Do you?

Mark

Tuberculosis is a disease caused by a bacteria, several actually and you are absolutely correct that poor nutrition, over crowding and poor health all contribute to its spread.

However there have been several experiments done inwhich infected cattle were housed in the same shed as none infected cattle. At the end of 12 months, where there was no physical contact, not a single un infected animal had any signs of infection. After 18 months there was no new infection.

Over to you Mark.

posted 327 days ago mark williams:

If true Poppy it speaks volumes for a modern democracy. 

posted 327 days ago Poppy:

David Cameron tried to bribe and then threaten an MP to drop his support for a ban on wild animals in circuses. Now he lies to the public by attempting deny he did this. Yeah... of course you didn't Mr Cameron.

posted 327 days ago mark williams:

What do you think newt ?

TB is a terrible disease yes but our main bone of contention here with the likes of some in the farming community and with some in politics, is how we eradicate it for once and for all.

Many sane people would think it mad to claim that this disease could be stopped with the death of badgers.

If disease brakes out in a human population we soon come to the conclusion that the problem lies in bad sanitation, housing, lack of nutritious food, contaminated waters and stress.

When you look at farming as a whole and industrial sized farming in particular you cant help but draw a comparison.

I think in so many ways we have the past to blame our ancestors always thought it only a beast. If it died who cares there are many where that came from. Today we have grants and subsidies and compensation for lost cattle. So in my mind little has changed in that respect.

So if we had the welfare of the cow first on our minds and not profit i feel the problem would disappear.

posted 327 days ago Alison Sesi:

This article in The Independent suggests that victory in the Circus Animals vote could herald a re-think about badger culling in general, as well as making it unlikely that the Hunting Act can now be repealed:

http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/could-foxes-and-badgers-be-next-to-feel-mps-love-2302557.html

No room for complacency, of course, but it looks as though more triumphs are in sight...

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Morning everyone,

The very best way NOT to sort out a very complex situation is to give it to politicians to muck up, closely followed by playing the blame game and then shouting abuse at each other.

The one thing that you can gauranttee with any two groups of people who strongly oppose each other over any issue is that there will be right and wrong on both sides.

Add politics and money into the equation, mix it up with a bit of violence, throw in a few "experts" who know all about one tiny part of the situation but nothing at all about other parts, and you have the perfect recipe for a right mess!

If we can agree on nothing else, could we agree on just one thing, and that the true enemy her is not those with a different view point, but M. bovis. This bacterium is causing the problem and it is a problem for those that encounter it. If you have bTB its a big problem, whether it is you personnally, a close relative or friend or the animals that you and your family have spent a lifetime caring about.

I am just one man, a totally unimportant individual in the middle of a storm and I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, here today, right now I say let change start here. Let's stop fighting each other, let's start working to help everyone who has to fight M. bovis, because the sooner we beat it the faster this row will be over, and we can all get on with our lives.

Take care,

Newt

posted 327 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Thanks newt,

My position doesn't come from a personal one where I needed to stop myself or others from being bullied, it comes directly from the fact that I think Killing badgers is wrong and it won't stop the spread of TB. Killing wildlife is wrong and it doesn't work, it just appears to some that it does. It was when I started to look around me, and then listen to other farmers and neighbours that I began to consider it in those terms and it opened up a whole new aspect that I didn't see anybody else taking into account much but it actually plays, in my view, a significant part in the interactions amongst so many people involved in this process, and I, we, so many of us here, were being dragged into it against our will.

So yes Raindance, very relieved thank you, we were being dragged down which,as it happens, is what brought me focus,because it was familiar. Badgers are very worthy, I found that we're in good company, so it just remained a matter of doing our best, picking our moment, and saying it in as loud a voice as possible. We're not there yet, but we're on the way, which is good. Wiser for the experience. 

posted 327 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Hi Philip

I find it very interesting what you say, not sure I understand everything, though.... Would you mind taking a look a my thread?: The very best solution: Vaccinating the cattle.

I would like to discuss things further on there, also you can read what has been discussed so far. Thanks:)

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Sorry I meant to say your life history is not very far from mine

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Wow Philip!

I am really impressed with what you've written here and agree so deeply with many points that you make. Saddly however we are not allowed to vaccinate cattle with the BCG and unfortunately there are some very good reasons for this, but let's not go there tonight, I'm tired and ache a bit, which is understandable under the circumstances and the family want me to spend some time with them and after helping me all evening, it is only fair.

Philip, you and I share many things in common, the history of your own life is not very close to my own. Farming is just what I do, primarily I too see my self as a naturalist first.

Your comments on processes and natural selection I would like to reply to if I may, and I don't think that we are a million miles apart, but I ask you for your patience tonight, I need to go and stretch my back.

Good night and take care,

Newt

PS I oppose the bullying that has gone on just as much as you do and I'll return to support you there too tomorrow.

posted 327 days ago Philip Allsopp:

Raindance

Thanks for your reply, I have always advocated vaccination as a tool in this bTB problem, but not for badgers, for cattle.

Newt; thank you for your reply too,  I don't believe that "natural selection is the best way to deal with any disease",  however, if a disease is mutating then it is doing so because it too, just like badgers, is exposed to natural selection processes, and it is an inherent part of it's make up to adapt to it's changing surroundings, it just happens that it does it a lot quicker than badgers, cattle and all of us.

I don't believe that natural selection takes control, I think that it always plays a part, and now, since the recent changes it is not being interfered with in quite the same way.

I took my first steps toward my career in agriculture in 1965 at the age of seven, I did that by shadowing a man whose job it was to milk cows. I wanted to work with animals and in the countryside and I succeeded.  But before I am a stockman, a farm and land manager, a businessman, or a member of a Welsh Assembly strategy group I am a Naturalist, so I too am very in touch with my surroundings, and I have a responsibility to what is happening here even though I am no longer tending livestock,farming (in the usual sense) or now connected to the Welsh Assembly, you see I'll change what I do because when I do that then different things happen. It's just my view, but it works.

I think that most of the time most people act with good intention, and if then in that they mostly do their best and most of them are good at doing their best then stopping bTB should be fairly straightforward, shouldn't it? So my question of myself ( because of my part in the scheme of things) was why isn't it happening. If people who are good at what they do then do their best yet fail then it suggests that there isn't necessarily a problem with the methods that they are using, it suggests they are being undermined by something. Well if it's not a problem with the methods, then it must be a problem with the process that they are in. So I looked at the process!  I did that in 2005, 2006 through to 2009. It meant starting in a different place, so I wasn't looking at badgers, I looked at what was happening to farmers and neighbours around here, and when Elin Jones waded in and it became much clearer. When people try to underine one another, manipulate and intimidate one another, bully one another, as has been happening in Pembrokeshire in response to the then proposed badger cull, then it's a sign that they are in a dysfunctional process of some sort. So if the process is dysfunctional then it will be pointless trying to change the methods because the dysfunction will always undermine what is happening in favour of the dysfuncton and in order to validate the key players. The answer would be to change the process.

It is my consideration based on my view that if the process hasn't changed, following the political changes, then the proposal to review and investigate, and of course not to kill badgers, means that there is a very very good opportunity to do so.

If it was me I think I'd look first to see what it is that generates the dysfunction.

My theory: When vets come onto farms to test cattle they test cattle but that's not the only thing that they do. In that action also they take the primary healthcare of the cattle away from the people whose job it is to have it, and that's not a good decision, it's the opposite, it's a really bad management decision that is then acted on by everyone involved as if it was a good one. And away it goes!

There's much more to the theory, but this isn't the place. My point is this, if my theory is correct, or nearly or partly correct then the recent changes put us all in a good position,potentially, and although it may still seem dark or desperate, for what ever reason, I see a wonderful opportunity to something very different.

I discovered, and I rediscovered it recently, that If I confront and challenge my biggest fears, I took my biggest steps. 

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Hi folks,

Sorry for not replying sooner, I'm in the middle of shearing sheep and we only came in for a bite to eat, but it's getting dark and there's rain in the air again so we've sent them back out for the night.

There are some good points here from all of you. Indeed I do agree that it is up to each of us to assess the impact that we have on our environment. It is far too easy to look at others from afar and say, you're doing it all wrong. We all do it, I know I do.

I would love to sit down and chat with Brian May, it's very flattering, he's very kind to offer, but really I am of no importance here at all and frankly I'm not worthy, not after some of the things I've said on other posts.

But it would be really fantastic if we could all get together and break down some of these barriers that exist between farmers and people like of all of you. I've said it before and I will say it again, Brian is lucky to have such nice people as his fans, but there are people who are just as nice in the farming community, why do we (the two communities) have to fight all the time, when just as Lisa said, their are some people in that community that share your opinions and clearly there are some here that share some of theirs.

Come on folks, let's all fight the real enemy here, M. bovis, not each other, please...

Newt

posted 327 days ago mark williams:

BB king is on Glastonbury at the moment its like manna from heaven..

posted 327 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thank you Brian for replying Newt. After all, he did made some good points:)

All I want to add, Newt. I'm also blaming the industry, that is, the big farming industry. You're not a part of this greedy industry in my opinion. Well, you know that already and I think Brian too has a problem with this industry as everyone else on here. I've been following this campaign from the start and never seen one place where he's criticised small farmers as yourself. As it says in this thread 'the militant end of the Welsh Farming community'. You're not a part of that category. 

Newt, I think it would be a fantastic idea for you and Bri to have a chat;) Go go!

posted 327 days ago Jasmine:

I agree, a lot can be done to lessen the impact of big music events, but those events are essential (IMHO). If we're going to get serious about being responsible for the planet, there should be a sufficient amount of people in charge of making good material choices, from organic coffee to solar panels powerful enough to handle video, audio, effects and backstage. Having said that, I can imagine it'd be very difficult for the artist to control any of that, especially while everyone pretty much does away with sleep for weeks to concentrate on their jobs.

Art and music bring people together, and they are part of the reason we were able to triumph as a species over the bigger, stronger, territorial neanderthals. I wouldn't say that it is self-indulgent in the least. Good music inspires people to create and truly interact, which these days is a rarity!

posted 327 days ago mark williams:

Hello Newt, don't get angry, but Man does not live on bread alone

You have highlighted a few facts about us humans. Yes you are absolutely right we do abuse and take for granted the planet in so many ways, with our rubbish waste. The squandering of resources and the such. But you missed the real point. The real point is we should take responsibility for our own actions in life. its not your fault that some farmers wish to see the end of Badgers, or to see cattle forced to produce milk in an endless cycle in a vast factory or if walkers dropped their crisp packets on your farm land.

Well the same can be said then for the performing artist, if someone dropped litter took drugs had sex drove a car, how can they be held responsible for these actions.

Well i know you are thinking, if the show didn't happen it would have solved the problem. But that would be wrong too, the same way it would be wrong if you never took up farming.

Ps the national grid is there to but we can’t turn that of neither. But we could use the power to make hydrogen or fresh water instead of turning night into day as it makes seeing this wonderful cosmos a tad difficult...

posted 327 days ago Newt:

Mr May,

Thank you very much for taking the time to reply and can I say that of course your music has been a fantasic inspiration to the world and I am in no way intending to criticise your music itself. I think we both see the point I was getting at, it is the industry not you that I was challenging.

You are of course correct when you criticise the industry of farming too, there is a great deal wrong and I would be the first to agree with that, but wouldn't it be fantastic if we could work together, united against the true enemy here, M. bovis?

I totally agree that badgers should be protected and have spent much of my life doing that, but the best protection of all would be to get rid of this disease once and for all. I share your passion to do this. But you need the cooperation of the farming community to clear the disease once and for all from cattle and we're a stubborn people, on behalf of all farmers, could I humbly beg you to help us instead of criticising us. I know we're not perfect, who is? But many of us are doing our very best to be environmentally friendly, we care passionately for our animals and we love nature and there are very, very few who would want to see all badgers gone - it would break my heart.

I'm going to stop there, I've taken enough of your time.

Take care,

Newt

posted 327 days ago Lisa Patterson:

Newt, please keep in mind that Brian does have the respect of many farmers who agree with his stance.

posted 327 days ago Brian May:

Thank you for communicating this, Mr Newt.

You make some great points. My industry does indeed act very irresponsibly at times.

There are many of us within it who challenge accepted practices and try to improve them, but there is a long way to go.

There are areas where I disagree, of course ... I certainly don't regard the net effect of a musical concert as zero (or, as you put it, pure self-indulgence). I think it would be a very impoverished world that regarded survival as the only purpose to life. I regard the sharing of music, art, and pure science as some of the more worth-while pursuits of human beings. And of course, though I agree with you about the often environmentally unfriendly materials that are involved in a show - plastic and metals - most of what we use in our work is just the every-day stuff our country sees fit to produce anyway - there is little choice. If you need a bucket, you probably have to buy a bucket, and figure out later if you approve of how it was made !

But in essence I think your point is well-made, and I'd welcome the chance to sit down one day over a pint of local brew and discuss it all further with you.

Cheers

Bri

posted 328 days ago Brettley:

Yes agreed Raindance. Great news.

posted 328 days ago Raindance:

Brettley,  

I quite agree - that is a shameful story, but it is absolutely wonderful that Members of Parliament have defied the Government and backed a ban on wild animals performing in circuses.  This is two good pieces of news in the space of two days.  It will take a while to implement this ban, but this is such a splendid result.

posted 328 days ago Brettley:

I've just read a sinister BBC report that Mark Pritchard Conservative MP was at first bribed and then threatened by David Camerons office if he didn't drop the bill to ban circus animals. This just goes to show Camerons attitude against animals and his support of animal abuse.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13895186

posted 329 days ago Raindance:

Philip, you must feel very relieved - and tired, too.  There were lots of celebrations on facebook and emails flying back and forth. It was lovely to know that Brock and all his relations can live in peace.   

I hope that this reprieve for our badgers will lead to a more ethical and scientific approach to dealing with bovine tb. The news reports that I heard eemed quite balanced, and good to hear a farmer speak who is opposed to slaughter.

As I posted on another thread yesterday, there is excellent work being done to develop vaccines, for this and other diseases, at The Jenner Institute.  It's most interesting.  The Institute website is: http://www.jenner.ac.uk/ 

posted 329 days ago Newt:

Philip,

I totally sympathise with you and there is very little justification to free shooting badgers and never across someone else's land against their wishes. As for natural selection taking charge I can't believe anyone would think that natural selection was the best way to deal with any disease!

Brian,

Totally agree when you say everyone should evaluate every business and how it impacts on the environment. I have been doing that with mine for nearly thirty years. As you condemn my industry, let me return the favour and look at yours.

A rock concert at a major venue for example (and I would love to hear your reply Brian). Thousands of fans travel hundreds of miles burning tonnes of fossil fuels. In the spirit of a party atmosphere, few will bring their own home grown organic beverages and foods; most will consume products from large multi-national companies, fast food, drinks etc. All produced in factories using plastics and metals. They will park their cars (those that travel that way) in huge tarmac deserts. They will scatter the residues of their half masticated food, its wrappers and packaging across planet en route. They will enter a huge venue, built of concrete and steel, plastics and timber all ripped from the environment. They will get hot and sweaty and all excited (requiring more fast food and drink) as they listen to deafening music that would scare the living daylights out of any badger in the area - but there will be none, they are much too intelligent to be there. Bright lights will flash and  pulsate, burning more fossil fuels, but without any real use or need. After an evening of delight and pleasure, the crowd will depart, to drink and take drugs and have sex or to just go home. The music will die and not one thing will be left behind that improves the environment, except the crap left for the rats.

Please enlighten me, which part have I got wrong? Apart from the self indulgent pleasure given to those taking part - or the huge financial returns to people like you - what good does this do to the environment?

posted 329 days ago Philip Allsopp:

From North Pembrokeshire, Many thanks from right down at the very bottom of our burrows to all. For a time there,let me tell you, it became pretty intense. It seemed like we were surrounded with all the guns pointing in.They even came here to count us, and we thought that was it, then it went quiet, then it was on again. Now it's all gone quiet and we're back to natural selection. Let's hope it's for good! Cheers Bri!

All love Broch et fam! 2011

posted 329 days ago Mitch (Save-Me Moderator):

Apologies for any posts that haven't been published, it's a technical glitch rather than an act of moderation.

Thanks for your patience :-)

posted 329 days ago Jasmine:

It certainly will benefit all animals! This is great news. There is no way around it... you can self-regulate, run as many "pilot" or "trial" culls as you want, results will not change. Culling will never eradicate bTB. If numbers go down, they will come back. Considering, as well, the potential disaster from perturbation, all that a cull can accomplish is an ill-educated game of Russian Roulette with our wildlife and cattle. 

I especially like what you wrote about giving the planet a voice in business decisions. That's really the only way forward, isn't it? One of my other half's friends has directed an awesome film called "Wakan Tanka" (Sioux - "The Great Spirit") where environmental experts and elders explore our fierce quest for economic growth, the pain it is inflicting on our planet and the ways we can live in an industrialized civilization and start to live harmoniously with the planet. Very cool. It's here: http://www.wakantankafilm.com

Welsh badgers will be safe in their homes for a little while longer. Here's hoping the new "science-led" decision will use the most extensive and complete evidence available... and maybe the heart will have a voice too.