posted 1 day ago Linda Adams:

hello folks, I've missed you all, especially the folks I can't yet find on facebook (hint hint) ... looks like this thread is 3 weeks old already, and I mentally can't focus enough to follow the conversation, I just wanted to check in and say hi as I've been gone well over a month.

Betina sorry to hear of your job? & carpal tunnel? and Newt's troubles with layoff & Mum's bankcard and someone's mother is unlikely to get better .... all hardships to live with ... sad to hear it...  these are the details I'm pulling up in a quick read-thru.

We had a wonderful wedding Dec 28, my oldest daughter married a wonderful fellow and the day was beautiful.

Today, a month later, after an extended-family reurrent argument {that is completely unsolvable at this point in time and has been for 7 years} - last week, I've collapsed inward quite badly and am still coming to terms with the inward childhood demons it released.

Seeking appropriate help medically & therapy and things, not to be too personal here in public but it's wonderful to know that a couple of Save-Me members on FB have my back - you know who you are -and I love you - are in the know - and quite literally - are helping save *me* at this time.

I don't mind discussing things more in private if you know how to contact me elsewhere (I'm not that hard to find really, on FB I'm the one with the Save-Me mutual friends!) ... I just wanted to thank you all for your friendship and support. I know we haven't met in person (except for my joy of shaking Brian's hand last year) but I do care for you all and know some of you care for me. (wink)

I can't follow on with the conversation here with too much brainpower, until I'm more mentally well - I honestly thought last Monday they'd toss me in the cracker-bin ... but they didn't and  I'm managing OK at home and beginning to sort myself out.

OK back to badgers. Baiting is awful, I still and always hate hunting, I raised a feral cat & tamed him & lived with him for 16 beloved years and he was my best cat - ever - - - oh but he did prefer to hunt his food. :( unlike typical housecats he hunted more like a lion for the quick kill & ate every morsel. Still... hate me for owning a cat I suppose... but I still miss that cat more than I missed my own grandmother when she passed O_O (should I admit this?? oh well, I did!) ... and Freddie surely loved HIS cats so... anyway,  I am a cat owner.... I also keep fish ... and keep them clean & happy and well-fed and the biosystem & chemistry of the water cycle fascinates me ... and I take caution to keep only species bred in tanks and not caught out in the wild though I'm still educating myself on this... they are pets to me and I love them dearly and get attached. I have made mistakes along the way but have also gained much education.

Well, think of me what you will.

This is a lovely little group - we are filled all with out own microcosms of problems but it is always good to serve and look outward outside ourselves.

All right - deep breath -- well it's back off to healing myself from the utterly wrong sort of slightly mad that hit me this week -- and keep passing the open windows - and myself alive. Much to live for. Keeping that in sight.

Take care all  -- much love,

Linda

xx

posted 1 day ago Steven Ault:

'Фредди' means 'Freddie', 'Дикона' means 'Deacon'. Some form of Russian. Don't think there's anything dodgy Mitch. You won't be sued by any Russian billionaires.

posted 1 day ago Steven Ault:

I understand the words 'Queen', 'Messiah', and 'All Kind Man', but the rest is a struggle. I'm sure it's supportive though. Mitch, how many languages do you speak? Some of it could be libellous!!

posted 1 day ago Shirli:

That's disgraceful, Judi, I'm sorry you were unfortunate enough to witness that. I've only ever lived in cities or at least far enough away from hunting spots that I've barely even seen a fox in real life, never mind a hunt in action, but if I did, I don't think I would be able to stop myself from confronting them... makes my blood boil. It's troubling that at this stage, it would only be a very small victory in keeping the ban in place - what we really need is tighter regulations, more attention put on this, and considering Cameron's viewpoint of the hunting ban 'bringing the law into an area where it doesn't belong', I think we're going to have a pretty huge fight on our hands. It's not being taken anywhere near as seriously as it should, and it makes me wish we had a clearer idea of what to do, and what's going to work.

xxx

posted 1 day ago Judi Hewitt:

I witnessed blatant illegal hunting last Saturday in Cefn in North Wales. We saw a fox being chased by hounds throigh a  very steep wooded hillside (the huntsman was way below in the field. Five quad bkes were out too - two with terrier-boxes. It's possible there was fox inside one because the terrier-man grinned at us then patted the box as he drove by - they headed down a field into a wood where the hounds and some riders were heading.

I heard a terrible commotion that sounded like a kill and then the horn call that confirmed my worst fears. We saw some hounds smeared with a lot of blood. The police officer on duty assured me they were only trail hunting!!!! He said he had been out and all seemed above board. WELL IT WASN'T AND I DIDN'T EVEN SEE HIM OUT.

One law for fox hunters and another for us.

posted 2 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

How about fox hunting in bTB hot spot areas? Does that happen?

Can it spread the disease?

posted 3 days ago Steven Ault:

Badger sett digging was a crime for the general public before the hunting act but not for the hunts. Terriermen were allowed to interfere with setts, and they still do illegally. Not sure how comprehensive the audit will be if it fails to include fox hunting with hounds. Apparently when they break the law it's considered an 'accident', not a crime. They need to examine the 'cultures' of travellers too, as they use dogs for bloodsports. It seems the law doesn't apply to the travelling community. 

posted 3 days ago Newt:

The way I read it Steve, they won't discuss the "organised" hunting with dogs. I read this as fox hunting or hare coursing. However badger baiting for example was a wildlife crime before the hunting with dogs act. Dog fighting too. Perhaps the difference is a subtle one. Anyway, one could respect the parameters of their brief and still have a go about illegal hunting with dogs, perhaps, within their remit and get your point across.

posted 4 days ago Steven Ault:

Just sent emails to Joan Walley and Caroline Lucas regarding the Environmental Commitee's audit into wildlife crime which does'nt include hunting with dogs!! I'm off to conduct an audit into the environmental problems humans have caused which does'nt include global warming because it might upset a minority of very influencial people. Tata.

posted 4 days ago Steven Ault:

Just been reading about the government's environmental audit into wildlife crime which fails to take account of hunting with dogs. They obviously don't clasify hare coursing, badger baiting, and fox hunting as crimes worthy of examination. It seems as though they are refusing to acknowledge the hunting act. It's a cross party committee so why have Labour MPs and especially Caroline Lucas not raised the issue? Can't you give her a call Brian? I'll certainly send a few emails. I will take part in the audit but much of it will feature hunting with dogs, I don't care what they say. They want to protect badgers from crime but without mentioning the 'd' word? Is the 'd' word in politics similar to 'Macbeth' in the acting world? What about people who set their dogs on fledgeling seagull chicks? Can't I mention it?, or will they tear up my contribution? Bizarre stuff.   

posted 5 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

A member called Carmy posted this link on a thread and I thought I repost it on here:

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/262162

It's about feeding badgers with supplement incl. lots of selenium. We have touched the issue briefly before but why hasn't this yet been investigated? It sounds easy and cheap to do!

...

Re. cattle breeds. Is there statistic on the different breeds reacting positive to the test? 

posted 5 days ago Steven Ault:

It amazes me how people think it's cruel and appalling when people kill or torture wildlife in the form of birds, voles, or mice, but they don't mind if their pet cat kills them. They say it's natural behaviour. Your pet is an extension of you and when it kills, you kill. What's the difference between setting a dog on badgers, and allowing your cat to terrorise and kill birds and rodents? The hypocrisy annoys me. If you love wildlife, don't get a cat.  

posted 6 days ago Steven Ault:

Hi Derek, I live in Bridlington so I'm not too far away. I saw a feature on The Politics show on BBC One today and there was a discussion on the Hunting Act. A rather loathsome hunt supporter claimed that only older foxes are killed by the hunts. Can you believe your ears? You mentioned 'cubbing'. She is either completely ignorant or deceptive. Probably the latter.

posted 6 days ago DEREK RUSSELL:

Hi 'Save Me' and all that support this great cause.

I live in a small rural location in East Yorkshire called Aike near market town Driffield.  For many years we have had to put up with the regular visits from the Holderness Hunt who plies their obnoxious sporting activity.  A week ago yesterday 21/01/12 we experienced one of the worst incursions onto residents land and gardens by the hounds who were mercilessly chasing a previously mauled fox.

Several villages had crowded together on our main street in order to confront the Master in his fancy dress, but he just continued to gallop directly to us without a care for our safety.  The police were called and to cut a long story short we are awaitng the out come to see if this will result in a prosecution.  On a positive note the residents of our village have formed an action committee to try and prevent any further incursions into our village and to make life for the Hunts people as difficult as possible.

All hunting with dogs is vile but 'Fox Cubbing' must be the most barbaric.  I agree the Hunting Act 2004 need reviewing I would suggest that it is banned unequivocally and without any ambiguity.

posted 6 days ago Newt:

Yes Betina, but that is because there is no M.bovis in this area and not just because I have rare breeds - unfortunately!

Take care,

Newt

posted 6 days ago Newt:

Yes of course they are culling because of the effect it has on the industry. And I agree, it is shameful that we don't spend more animal welfare and curing disease in wild animals.

However that's not the whole story.

I hope your hands get better soon Betina. Sorry to hear you lost your job because of it. This week we learnt that my wife's firm that was taken over by merchant bankers recently are making a number of people redundant, that was Monday. Tuesday they named her as one of them and Wednesday she was sent home. But at least we know that the bankers will all get big fat bonuses so that's good isn't it - he said sarcastically.

I'm on the road again, yesterday we learnt that my Mum's bank card has been cloned and she has lost over £6,000 to someone who likes sexpills and itunes. What really makes me sick is we can't afford to lose it and I don't how we're going to put it back! Now I'm going to have drive to the otherside of the country again and spend more on fuel and more time on protecting the family.

I don't know what's wrong with me really, I spend my life helping people, looking after my animals and trying to protect the wild animals on my farm and all I get is ripped off and abuse. I don't know what you image that we farmers are getting out of bTB Steve, whatever it is, I don't see any. Oh well, I'd better get on. I have to be home as soon as I can, we are due a BTB test after the end of the month and I'd better make arrangements! The only trouble is (because we are not likely to have any reactors) my girls are all heavily pregnant and one thing they never say is that putting heavily pregnant sucklers through a cattle crush always leads to abortions and no you don't get any compensation and then you have lost a year's income from that cow. But they won't let you postpone the test, it has to be in the time frame that they give you. But you're right Steve, it is all about money, isn't it. I mean I couldn't possibly want to do anything because it's the right thing to do, could I?

posted 6 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

And they and 'your' badgers don't have bTB...... 

Steven, I was tying to answer Newt's question; "Can we stop bTB in the wild in any other way?"

posted 6 days ago Newt:

Yep that would be me then! Yeah I use rare breeds! thanks guys!

posted 6 days ago Steven Ault:

Some traditional breeds are more resilient to tb Betina, but as usual it all comes down to money. It's less economical to use these breeds. Only farmers with a passion for ancient breeds would use them. Homogeneity in the livestock sector is similar to economies of scale in the retail industry. Cows have been finely tuned like Formula one cars to yield as much productivity as possibe. If the government is culling badgers because of the economic impact of tb, then what chance is there of temporarily halting the livestock industry? It would cost billions. The long term objective is to save money, not eradicate diseases or viruses in wildlife. Have you ever heard of a government embarking on a costly scheme to eradicate diseases in wild 'animals' purely on welfare grounds?

posted 7 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Oh, and yes it's the Carpal T syndrome and Tenosynovitis - in both hands - it drives me CRAZY!!! But thank you for making me a bit less nervous:)

It cost me my job.

posted 7 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Well, Newt. I do get it... bTB is here, there and everywhere and will be until we do something about it.

But as my fellow citizen Mr. Lomborg says "It's not enough doing something that make us to feel good, it's about doing something that does something good". (Sorry about the grammar)

Have you tried to pause the cattle industry? I strongly believe that cows are maintaining bTB in the wild, and in badgers.... The whole slurry issue has not yet been fully identified.

If you took away the cattle industry in all hotspot areas, I think UK would still be able to feed the UK population with meat and dairy... it's the export market that will suffer the most and well.... I'm sure other countries will survive. So you'll loose a bit on that for a while, but it might solve the bTB problem. 

And yes, I know, farmers will loose their businesses because the compensation will not cover everything - and you can't just change from one production to another. It's a huge problem - but the government and EU should help in some way... as always. Sorry, I know you hate me for saying that!

Starting over also by creating stronger cows is worth a thought. I've heard, nowadays cows are all genetically very much alike, which makes them more vulnerable and fragile. Is that true? What about the old breeds, introducing a more broad spectrum of cattle races might be one of the ways forward.

posted 7 days ago Kula:

If the solution does not involve the culling of badgers and the disease is self sustaining in badgers, doesn't that mean that it will be necessary to vaccinate in areas where TB already exists in badgers?

If so, has it been established whether or not the BCG vaccination will make the prevalence of the disease worse in infected badgers. I understand from a report published in the Irish Republic, who are investing heavily into badger vaccination, that some scientists are worried that the exacerbation caused by the vaccination of infected mice may also be seen in infected badgers.

This report was published in 2009 and is shown below for those who may be interested. This report states that the effects of a single dose are marginal but more pronounced in repeated doses. When the vaccine is administered by sprinkling it on the ground for badgers to consume I guess this may be a problem. I would be interested to know if anyone knows of a more recent report which gives an update.

 http://www.jwildlifedis.org/content/45/4/1042.full

posted 7 days ago Steven Ault:

I did'nt see him on Titchmarsh but I did see him on a BBC Four programme last night about Vox amplifiers. He was talking about negative feedback and distortion. You will always find him in the kitchen at parties, probably talking to me. Who needs porn when you have music technology? Oh yeah.  

posted 8 days ago Newt:

Okay, that didn't work. Never mind.

Betina,

I'm so sorry but you just don't get it do you, it is too late now, bTB is out in the wild, the badgers have it and it is totally self sustaining and spreading and even if we got rid of every cow in the UK and God knows enough people are trying to do that, it still will not stop bTB.

Okay I get it, you lot think that we can do without meat production in the UK - but with the greatest respect, that is irrelevant! Even if we could, most people in the UK eat meat, and an even higher proportion of those in Europe do! But again this is not relevant because this is not just a cow disease.

I hope your hand gets better soon. If it is carpal (hope that's the right spelling) tunnel problems then the operation is simple and you'll be much better when it's done. Had that myself. Good luck.

Steve,

thanks for asking about Mum, I'm afraid she is unlikely to get better. Not sure what you mean about the St francis comment, but I'll take it as a compliment - thanks. I'm not as bad as you think I am to be honest.

You did the right thing with the gull. As caring people, one of the hardest things we have to do, is accept that we can't help something and let it go.

Personally, I don't want to see a single badger killed, but I feel that if we can't help the sick ones, we have to prevent them suffering any more. I get what you are saying about 65% of them not showing signs of illness in that cull Kula was talking about. You are right, the 65% would appear to be healthy - that is in a nutshell the whole problem with badgers, that they do appear to be healthy - but they would probably still be contaminated.

Anyway, I don't want to get into that whole argument again.

Look if we are going to get rid of bTB and we absolutely must try, and you want to turn to vaccination as a primary weapon against the disease, then we must vaccinate tens of thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of badgers. Nearly all of which will be on agricultural land. So we need farmers to cooperate and we need hundreds, probably thousands of volunteers to help. Perhaps we need to focus on that? And let's put personal differences asside please. On the whole, I agree with many of the things that you say, the only real difference is ...well you know what they are.

I've failed again to get through to Brian, I'm off home for a cuppa and maybe I'll get some sleep - that would make a change!

Night all,

Newt

posted 8 days ago Newt:

Sorry Steve,

you're right office work does make me cranky! Why on Earth we have to do so many stupid forms is beyond me! It's 3;00 am and I'm sitting in a carpark outside a service station logging on because my dam phone line is on the blink and I wanted to email that certain rock star we all know and couldn't at home and no I've realised that his bloody email address is on my other computer!

AHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Did you see him on Titchmarsh? I only got a glimpse between bedding up cows and a phone call from a farming friens in the High peak, but he was good...

Brian if you're there, please email me.

posted 8 days ago Steven Ault:

That's actually really good advice about spiders Dom. The more you understand something the less you fear it. Can't you visit the local library Betina and borrow a book on spiders? Hey Dom, remember Father Dougal's spider baby?

posted 8 days ago Steven Ault:

Betina, you kill spiders because of your fears but some people are scared of pigeons, seagulls, dogs, humans, bees, wasps, cats, the list is endless. How could you complain if those species were killed as a result of people's fears? How would you react if someone shot a bat or fox because they were scared. You would have no right to criticise them right? I don't have those fears so I don't understand the emotions involved. You say it's about size (typical girl) but does that mean if something is smaller it's not as important or sentient? Elephants are bigger than us so does that mean they're more important? Your argument suggests that it's okay to kill things we fear. Wolves and bears are extinct in the UK because of people's fears and it has upset the balance of nature. However, I can understand why they were targeted because they were clearly dangerous to humans. Spiders are not dangerous in Europe. I don't really fear humans, I fear the unknown and the unexpected. That's why I like a routine.  

posted 8 days ago Dom:

Some great discussion here folks. Thanks for the read.

Newt-That bankers million pound salary=disgusting ain't it? What is wrong with this darn country.

Bet-I found the best way to cure my fear of spiders is to study them as close as possible, works a treat, such fascinating beasts. 

Take care you lot.

P.s-I had an email Mitch but I dont know what to do...help?!

posted 8 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

I do fear humans... the race.

posted 8 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Oh I knew you would hit on that:) Steven. I know, you're right... but what's a single girl gotta do.....? I hate it, killing them..... it's awful but my fear is overwhelming. And me acting calm, fast and targeted I'm telling my kids I'm not too afraid.

SO sorry, love. Don't know what else to do in the situation...... How about focussing on all the good stuff I wrote?(ha ha)

BTW - I could never kill anything bigger - and I'm not afraid of dogs - I'm a dog person, I would buy dogs if I had the money. And treat them well and not like toys or babies! 

posted 8 days ago Steven Ault:

Killing spiders does'nt cure arachnophobia Betina. The aim is not to scream and panic in front of your children when they're growing up. They read your emotions. I know people who are afraid of dogs, but I'm sure you would'nt advocate killing them. If we killed everything people were afraid of, would anything exist at all? Some people have social phobias and fear humans. Killing spiders is a terrible thing to do. 

posted 8 days ago Steven Ault:

The herring gull I took to the vets for euthanisation was hit by a car and it's wing was hanging off. Not sure where the similarity is with culling squirrels and badgers. Office work makes you cranky Newt. It does with all outdoor people. Just seen a feature on the local news (Look North) about a campaign by East Yorkshire fox hunters to bring back hunting with hounds. They say only people from the countryside should vote on country issues. Should we have a say on food production I wonder? We're the consumers. There's a discussion at 12.00 on sunday on the politics show.

Have you seen this story about a farmer in Nottingham. He makes Newt look like St Francis of Assisi. Terrible case. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-16758021

posted 8 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Thank you Newt, I too hope it clears up soon - I might need an operation and I'm nervous about it. On the other hand :) it's hard to live with.

...

Black and white do not exist in the messy situaton we've created in nature. Black and white opinions! So if we kill spiders in our houses to prevent our phobic fear affecting our children, if we kill rats in our sewerage systems to prevent diseases from spreading in cities - and killing bacteria, microorganisms, when curing diseases, then it's comparable with killing badgers, foxes, stags and other wild animals? Then it's ok to kill other mammals and if we oppose to that we're hypocritical?

I do not understand that kind of thinking.

In June we had a flood... well, the rain poured down and we had water coming up and they said it killed half of the rat population in Copenhagen and in the suburbs. Bad thing with all the damages caused by water on human made stuff but a natural way of controlling the rats... for a while.

Tell me, all these murders on human races that has happend through times in wars and by insane rulers - did it help in reducing the human race?

Is their a lesson somewhere, what does it mean? I guess it means culling a specie will not help! On the contrary, a cull on a specie makes it multiply faster and makes it stronger. When people multiplies, bacteria mulitiplies and rats multiplies too and who lives of rats? Cats? Foxes? So if we kill them...? And when we kill bacteria some changes to survive and they'll mulitiply and get stronger... it's not esay controlling nature's will power.

Isn't all our original existences caused by coincidences and not by planning?

What we do as humans can not always be compared to what animals do... there are many strong similarities but we do have the ace-card since we're capable of killing everything and because of it we have an obligation to think before we act and pay the prize of our mistakes.

Can we stop bTB in the wild in any other way? Well, actually there IS another way; we could pause the whole cattle industry for a while.

posted 8 days ago Newt:

Ah yes I see what you are saying, there are some very fine distinctions here though. I see it is okay for Steve Ault to take a gull to be euthanised because it was suffering, but Newt is just motivated by greed and self interest and financial reasons yeah? ;-)

No joking apart, there is a lot here that I agree with. As for us eliminating all cruelty in the wild - well no of course not. Although I have to confess I have stepped in and tried to stop a stoat killing a rabbit, a mink killing a rat and a pack (a small one) of hounds killing a fox - all because I don't like to see an animal suffer. Actually thinking about it, all three species cost me money, so why did I bother I wonder?

look I'll have to go, I've finished the office work I was doing and now I have to relentlessly and selfishly try and make a pound or two. Speak later, Newt

posted 8 days ago Steven Ault:

Homo-sapiens killing for survival is part of the natural process. It's one species surviving at the expense of another. Killing for sport, for fashion, for unneccesary food, or to help another species has nothing to do with survival or evolution. This is killing or culling for purely selfish reasons, usually financial or cultural. What are you astonished about? Are you suggesting we interfere with nature by eliminating all cruelty? Stop lions from killing gazelles? Stop Black-backed gulls from eating chicks? They do it for their survival, not for unneccesary reasons like we do. I have taken a badly injured Herring gull to the vets to be euthanised, so I guess I have killed to prevent suffering. Badgers are being culled for financial reasons, not to reduce suffering of livestock or badgers, make no mistakes about that!

posted 8 days ago Newt:

If people are no better or worse, but equal to animals and you believe that the evolutionary process is all, then surely the species Homo sapiens killing other species is just a natural part of the evolutionary cycle too?

posted 8 days ago Newt:

Sorry I'm not trying to be rude, I'm just totally astonished.

posted 8 days ago Newt:

So aslong as it is natural, it is okay? No matter how much pain and suffering is involved, you think that it is right to let an animal go on suffering? That is disgraceful!

Then why do you object to badger baiting?

posted 8 days ago Steven Ault:

Newt, if I had a problem with death I would'nt be promoting natural selection and defending the evolution process. When I said no species should be culled to help another I am supporting natural death, not unnatural death caused by human interference. Death is life, I agree Newt. Fossil fuels are created from dead plants and 'animals' decaying over millions of years. Kula, I never said I supported the killing of rats, I made the distinction between culling (to control numbers) and killing (to appease members of the public who see one from time to time). We have around 50million rats in this country and you can't control them, I guess their numbers are determined by food supply. I respect rats and have never had a problem with them. The objective is not to attract them to 'human' areas by being lazy with waste. So Kula, 65% of badgers killed were healthy and died for no reason? That's awful, how can anyone support that?

posted 8 days ago Newt:

Brrr! It’s cold out there this morning and it must have put down some rain last night! It’s good to get into the warm and have a hot drink and see what you’re all saying. I was just feeding my cows and I turned around and there were two roe deer watching me, not more than fifty feet away! They are really hard to see in the wood, but judging by the relaxed way they wandered off, I suppose they are quite used to seeing me!

Steve, we both know that you are splitting hairs and if you reread what I put previously you will see that I tried to make it clear that I feel that culling should always be as a last resort. I think that you bring up a good point with starving people (although not just in Africa but here too, did you see in the news the other day that there is a big problem in care for the elderly of people going hungry and thirsty and that many elderly die of malnutrition?).

I think Dom makes a fair point, in many ways we do permit, covertly if not openly, culling of people in the third world, through our own agricultural policies, oil production policies, banking policies and foreign policy and it is shameful! Especially when we could use other methods such as birth control to reduce our own species’ population, voluntarily. Yes this hypocritical, but it happens.

If you don’t mind me saying Steve, you seem to have a big problem with death, am I right? Is death the problem?

To me (and yes I know you see this differently) death is all around us. I see it everyday of my life. It is a natural part of the life cycle and every living organism does it. To my knowledge there is no animal species alive today that does not feed on organic material of some sort, so all animals need the death of some other species to survive, except I suppose nectar eaters, but that is organic material is it not? Not sure if it alive or dead?Anyway, death is not the issue is it? Death is inevitable and actually it is totally necessary for all life to continue.

Surely the issue is the pain and suffering in life that is the issue? Surely, we as intelligent human beings should always try to minimise pain and suffering in others as well as ourselves. Surely we have a duty to protect the weak and prevent suffering to others around us if we can? If we kill, and we all do in one way or another (insects on a windscreen for example), surely we have a duty to so quickly and cleanly with as little pain and suffering as we can?

You are right in some ways, we would not openly cull humans, especially in another country, to control population or for any other reason. But we do allow it to happen. Is that guilt through negligence?

On a lighter note; the RBS chairman is to receive a bonus of over a million today, I see because “his job is so difficult and stressful”. I note that they said on the news that he earns the same in three days as a soldier fighting on the frontline in Afganistan does in a year. Or to put it another way, for a year’s “hard” work and “stress”, he earns the same as a million plus children will earn making bricks in India today or a million Chineese children will earn burning electronic parts on open stoves to “recycle” computer parts today.

Clearly his life must be very stressful! So it would be an act of extreme kindness to put him down would it not? Never mind the children in Africa, perhaps we should look closer to home, there are so many people earning such huge bonuses in the City because their lives are such “hard work” and so “stressful”. Perhaps the time has come for a cull of bankers in the interests of preventing such pain and suffering? It must be the humane thing to do! And it would save so much money too! LOL!

posted 8 days ago Kula:

Steve

When you say that the killing of rats cannot be described as a cull, are you defending and supporting the killing of rats? Why are rats any less deserving than humans? Why is it acceptable to kill rats when it is not acceptable to kill starving people in Africa? Is it not hypocritical to kill rats? Also have you ever thought of the suffering which you are causing to rats when you properly dispose of your food waste? Death by starvation is a horrendous way to die.

Obviously the above does not describe my feelings on the issue. In fact I feel that it would be acceptable to cull badgers in areas where the proportion of infected badgers is high, if the proportion of badgers suffering from the disease can be reduced and badgers in other parts of the country can be left untouched.

Lord Krebs in his bovine TB report published in 1997 stated that when badgers were culled around affected farms, 35% of postmortemed badgers were found to be infected.

Should all badgers around affected farms be culled or should we allow a proportion of the 35% to reach a highly infectious moribund state?

posted 9 days ago Dom:

Some would say Steve millions of Africans are being culled by their own governments and the stranglehold Western practices. Such as our businesses and (not to incite Newt here) but EU farming subsidies whihc keep Africa down. And what do we do? The Yanks tried to help in Somalia in the 90s, and got their arse kicked and thats about all I can think of.

Im not taking a side here as Im out the loop at the moment but we humans are bloody horrid to one another. Some major culls were in Serbia in the 90s, by the Russians after the war (on its own people) and  Nazi germany and Japan during the war. The NVA and VC during Vietnam the list goes on. And yes I suppose your right we write them down as genocides and war crimes and send in armies as they are deemed inhuman (whihc they are).

Yet we have done the same to many animal species because we dont like what they do / are/ where they are. 

James Herriot once said 'if only they could talk'.

Perhaps its best for us they dont eh? Because lets be honest we are Planet Earths Enemy Number One. A pest upon our blue planet, or a parasite even?

posted 9 days ago Steven Ault:

Newt, if culling a species to prevent starvation and suffering is the right thing to do, why don't we cull those millions of starving Africans in Sudan, Somalia, and Ethiopia? We'd never do that would we? Even though they are suffering greatly, people would find the idea completely abhorrent. If culling is the humane thing to do, then we are treating 'animals' better than humans by allowing such terrible human suffering. I don't think the killing of rats can be described as a cull. It does'nt really impact on their numbers. When 'pest' controllers are called out it's merely a public relations exercise. The only strategy with rats is to ensure food waste is properly disposed of. Infestations are mainly caused by human error. The idea of culling one species to help another is unacceptable and hypocritical. Succesfull species should be respected not punished. Extinction is a natural process. It's our activities which have caused unnatural extinctions i.e. fashion and bloodsport. Hope your mother is better Newt.    

posted 9 days ago Steven Ault:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-16739988

A small victory (I think). A beagle breeding site's expansion plans have been abandoned following a decision by the government.

posted 9 days ago Newt:

Betina,

I'm sorry to read that you are having trouble with your hands, and I hope that it clears up soon. Reading what you have written here is great and I really wish we could live in harmony with nature in a world as you describe it, but sadly we don't (God knows I try here but it just isn't possible).

There is no getting away from the fact that in many ways the world is a mess and yes we must do what ever we can to address problems created by mankind, sadly we can not just rely on nature to sort everything out. So sometimes we do have to cull excessive numbers of a species, for the benefit of other species or sometimes even themselves to prevent disease spreading or starvation or other serious welfare issues.

Yes this sort of thing does attract people motivated by hunting, but it is not always so. Take the control of rats and mice for example, most are not actively hunted down for sport. The grey squirrel cull is not motivated by hunting either, dogs are useless on grey squirrels and guns in dense woodland are dangerous so it has to be done by trapping. Just so that you know, my neighbours who own the estate wanted their gamekeeper to cull grey squirrels, but he couldn't be bothered, it was too much like hard work and not as much "fun" for him as shooting.

Perhaps we turn to culling far too quickly as a solution to problems - that I will concede. Sometimes we can't be bothered with or won't spend the money on alternatives and that is shameful really. But sometimes there is no alternative otherwise our cities would become overun with rats or we would lose another species such as the red squirrel. Or what bothers me far more than any of that, if we ignore overpopulation within certain species, this can cause very serious welfare implications to them.

Surely it is not enough just to be alive, the important thing is the quality of a creature's life?

Take Dom's hamster; this is a very good example of a good man, Dom, trying to do the best that he could for another creature. I get this and I'm with Dom completely, I'm not criticising, this is how I like to or try to run my own farm. So what if the hamster only cost £10 and the treatment cost £100? It was the right thing to do. Tretaing the hamster saved its life. Of course Dom "culled" all the mites infecting it. He culled one species to protect another. Dom took this course of action to prevent suffering to an animal in his care. He was not hunting nor was he motivated by sport, he was treating a problem, fighting a fire if you like. Had he left it to nature then the creature in his charge would have suffered a long and uncomfortable death. This is right and proper.

Red squirrels suffer horribly from the squirrel pox. There is no affective treatment that one can applied to a colony of wild squirrels, when greys arrive they bring the pox and the reds start to die. They can't live alongside each other. Nothing we have tried (and believe me we've tried some really clever things) has worked. The only alternative is to keep the greys back and we are failing, because they out breed our resources. Culling is the only viable option. It is the right thing to do. 

Badgers are a different problem. It may well be that the hunting lobby are using this issue to push forward their own agenda - just as some are using it to attack farming and push their agenda.

Somewhere in all this we have lost the whole point; the real question has to be "can we stop bTB in the wild in any other way?"

If vaccinating is the answer and you all truly believe that, then why have only 36 lay people been trained to do so? I would have much more confidence in that as a solution if 36,000 people had volunteered.

posted 10 days ago Shirli:

Some good points being raised here.  Our dear David Cameron pretty much came straight out and said what you mentioned, Betina, about 'fixing the mess' being the top priority - I remember hearing somewhere a little while back that when asked to justify the decision to go ahead with the badger cull despite steadily growing evidence against it, he pretty much responded with (with the usual eloquence of a politician, mind!) 'well, we need to be seen doing SOMETHING.'  It wasn't a long speech but it was very unfortunate in the way he worded it, and to be honest, it sounded as though he was really saying 'the welfare of badgers isn't very important in this situation, and we don't want the public to think we're doing nothing, so if we can begin culling now as a way of at least looking as though we have a solution, why wait for another option?'  I really am perplexed sometimes that going back through the years, people just didn't think about the long-term effects of what they were doing, and I'm obviously including pollution and the like in that.  A government can't just forge ahead with any old thing regardless - we need to consider the effects upon everything.  I'm hoping there's still something we can do for the badgers, before it's too late.

xxx

posted 10 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Hi Steven, hope you're doing fine.. my hands are acting up a.t.m., can't write as much as I want. It's a challenge both to write and not to do it.

About biodiversity and hunting, you're asking some good questions. The way I see it is that we humans should stop interfering with nature unless we think ahead on what long-term impact we create to nature. Culling my arse. I think 99 % of the cases it's an excuse for going hunting or because we try to reset nature - restoring what we have ruined. It is not up to us to decide what animals, trees and plants we want in the wild - it will no longer be wild then but human made. But we do need to try and fix some of the mess we made IF we can do it without killing and destroying even more. It seems that it's the top priority - fixing the mess, putting out fires. Instead, target one should be, learning from our mistakes, so next time we clear areas or planting areas we break as few circles of nature as possible. It means we would have to be very careful with what we do out there.

In the case on red/grey squirrels - yes it was a mistake introducing the grey since they eliminate the reds, no one thought of that outcome, I guess. Of course we should try and preserve the reds but not by killing the greys - that would be all wrong and unfair. Sometimes we reach a point where we have to accept the consequenses. Accepting and enjoying the grey squirrels might be the very best solution... and whatever negative effects they causes we must deal with it - we must be compassionate inventive not murderers. For us to say, we need culling species to maintaining biodiversity is a lame excuse. We make choices and when we do, we ought to think about the future of nature before we do anything to it, in it and around it.

In parts of Switzerland/Genova, they've banned hunting and the places where it's legal you need a hunting licens which is very difficult and pricey to get. I've tried several times before to find more info on the matter but it's difficult - it might be that most information only exist in french and german. It's a shame because I think we could benefit from their knowledge.

http://geneva.angloinfo.com/countries/switzerland/hunting.asp

http://www.huntineurope.com/userfiles/file/products_langs/HUNT IN EUROPE_Switzeland.pdf

Switzerland also has strict laws on keeping social animals, unfortunately they have recently (last year) rejected a move on 'lawyers for animals'. (It's a fantastic proposal!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8554012.stm

http://www.animallaw.info/nonus/statutes/stchapa1978.htm

I think educated hunters could make a huge difference. If we had employed people to walk around carefully, only killing what is necessary to kill, hunting would never be a social event, no-one would boast and exhibit bodyparts as trophies, no praise and admiration by buddies, less accidental shots and wounded animals, less damage on woods and fields - less shooting weapons in private homes, less breeded dogs and wild birds etc etc....

And Steven, I thought hunting was categorized as a sport but I might be wrong on that. But it is defined as something recreational and it is often a social event. It should not be any of it.

posted 13 days ago Steven Ault:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-york-north-yorkshire-16670656

This will help the Countryside Alliance's 'collaboration' with 'Welcome to Yorkshire'! It would be funny but it could have happened to an innocent person. If you go down in the woods today, you could get shot by a prat.

posted 13 days ago Steven Ault:

Just sent emails to Spelman, Paice, and Clegg regarding the badger cull. It won't achieve anything but I did'nt want to regret not taking any action.  

posted 13 days ago Steven Ault:

Very interesting feature in the Daily Mail on badger baiting. I can't help but think this paper is responsible for some wildlife crime given the way it portrays certain species. The man who discovered the baiters is a bloodsport enthusiast too, so there's a lot of hypocrisy and contradiction as usual. I guess the shooting and ferreting in which he participates is still legal though. Some of the men had previous convictions but were still allowed firearms. We need stricter gun laws and licenses for dog ownership. I read on the news today about another child mauled by a dog. Many cats are dissapearing from streets and I fear they are being used as bait for dog training. I don't understand these people. I can understand violence and murder in the heat of the moment but premeditated cruelty like this? I just don't get it. Betina, you say hunting is banned in Switzerland but I'm sure they must cull certain species. When does culling become hunting? When does hunting become sport? When does being educated make hunting more acceptable? 

The problem with promoting biodiversity Betina is that culling is often used to achieve greater biodiversity. Biodiversity is why grey squirrels are culled, along with Ruddy ducks and parakeets. The objective of the RSPB and wildlife trusts is to promote biodiversity which often means culling one species to assist another. I think we should encourage biodiversity but not through culling. We should make better use of land to prevent as much habitat loss as possible. I think the priority for us is to campaign against repeal of the hunting act and against the badger cull. Banning hunting is a distant dream. 

posted 14 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Dom, I suggest, as I mentioned some post down, that we could fight for the end of hunting categorized as a sport. It should be a job performed by educated people. I'm sure it would end a big part of cruelties to animals, breeded as well as wild. And it's not a total unrealistic suggestion, because in parts of Switzerland they've done it - they've banned hunting!

posted 14 days ago Dom:

Hope ya mums ok newt. Don't get to tired if you have long drives. Anyone had any ideas on how us humble grunts can help stop cruelty? I'm still with licenses for cats and dogs. As much for the animals sake, I see alot of shoddy ownership in my line of work, it's also a bit of income and could even create a few jobs. I know what you meant about some innocent dogs getting caught out but it's like that already newt. We are over saturated and later I'll share two horror dog stories to emphasise this. You are right bad owners are the blame and I think licenses, compulsory micro chipping and neutering is one way.

posted 15 days ago Newt:

Ah yes indeed, Webbroadcaster you are quite right I do waste far too much time on here and I agree with Steve too, please don't be put off by me, I was - in my own cackhanded way - trying to help. I had no idea that you were one of the dozen lay people who have so far trained to vaccinate badgers! Well done! How many have you done? And yes I can see from your web site that you are very busy. I am too, Friday afternoon was supposed to be some time off for me before I set off on another long journey this morning. My mother is ill on the other side of the country and I have to sort some things out for her, but I have to be home later for my livestock. It's too early yet (00.27)so I'm just having a cuppa first if that's okay with you? I was intending to leave at 2.00am to be back here before dusk so I can check all the animals on my small farm are okay.

Alas Betina you see through me, my time here has modified my own views somewhat, however perhaps not as much as you might want. Although I feel that you misunderstood me if you ever thought that I blamed bTB on badgers, I think you will find that I have always maintained that the blame game was unhelpful. So it saddens me that you still see cattle as the only source of bTB. Clearly your own views have not be changed by me - bovine TB is only called "bovine" because it was first seen in cattle. As we call one type of flu "Spanish flu" and another "Asian Flu". Spanish flu does not confine itself to the Spanish and Asian flu does not confine itself to Asians. In the same way all mammals can get "bovine" TB it is just "bovine" by name.

As for biodiversity, yes I agree.

posted 15 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

"Biodiversity is not just a luxery for the rich: It is a necessity for the poor".

http://www.teebweb.org/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/aug/16/nature-economic-security

"Human kind has still a lot to learn about the nature of Value and the value of Nature"

posted 15 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Webbroadcaster (nice long name which is impossible to shorten:) Well, thank you for your view, it's always refreshing to hear from newcomers. And I must say I'm impressed. That you have recorded the badgers so intensively is amazing. I've looked at the videos and I did not have the patience to look it through till the end so I was wondering if you have a mixed sample, a small edited video with close-ups and an explanation to what happens. Sorry, but these modern days everything has to happen within 5 minutes or you'll loose people. I think it would be a good thing to have a short summarized vid that explains the life of a badger.

Newt, is it me or did you experience some sort of a mind change by being on here? It's nothing to be ashamed of, really. You say: "Badgers are not the cause of bTB, but there is clear scientific evidence that they carry bTB and once.... " and " Please vaccinate your badgers...... It is AMAZING! I can't remember you having that opinion when you left your first note on SM. Perhaps I've missed something, but no matter what, I agree and I really think it's clever words;) Do not mean to offend but it's important to see the good that happens. Another thing is that you say... feeding badgers on one's property to avoid them from spreading the disease to other farms. Where does this comes from? I can't remember we have ever talked about this on here.

Well, this might just be me having difficulties in keeping up at the moment. I've recently found out to my surprise or should I say dissapointment that the two biggest organisations who fights for animals and nature in Denmark condone hunting???! I can't tell you how dissapointed I am. They fight for the welfare of animals and maintainence of nature but they do not fight for ending hunting as a sport. For your info, we don't have bloodsports i DK. But I still don't like the whole concept of hunting as a social sport..... there are very few excuses for hunting and no sport should involve the killing of animals! So I'm trying to get an overwiev of them cons and pros here and so far it seems we are a very tiny group of people who's against hunting in DK. It's very frustrating.

I want to ask you about the people who hunt legally in UK. Those who actually follow the rules of the Hunting Act. I do know that the priority is ending cruel hunting, but still I would like to know if you think it's ok to hunt down foxes, stags, hares and a variety of breeded birds - for the fun of it? Of course, I know most people on here do NOT approve - but then my question will be; how can we end hunting as a sport in general? How can we deal we the arguments? I'm thinking..... we might need to unite in one voice within EU to be able to make some noise on this matter. Putting pressure to EU to ban hunting as a sport. EU did decided it's not a human right - so far so good.

Oh and by the way, if we loose the BCG vaccine - and cattle Btb hits humans, the only thing we can do is to kill all the cows.... cause they're the core source of Btb. It might be provocative to some, but remember - it's worst-case scenario. I would not feel good about that. But what's the alternative - killing all wildlife? The only thing we can live without is the cattle - we need nature and wildlife, without we become extinct.

http://www.teebweb.org/

posted 15 days ago Steven Ault:

Don't be put off by Newt, Mr Webbroadcaster. You should post on here when you can. He's got the guns but we've got the numbers! Yes Newt, tb does have to be tackled, but the scientists concluded that culling can make no meaningful contribution to reducing tb. It could even spread it further. We're not opposed to tackling tb.

posted 15 days ago webbroadcaster:

Newt,

I don't care that you think my analysis of the politics superficial and offencive. You must either be a politician or had a very sheltered life to take offence. Not that I tried to make offence. If it did, tough.

My entry on the forum was only to offer any website dedicated to stopping a cull and to protecting Badgers, the best marketing tool available to make the general public aware of Badgers and their plight and to hopefully get more support against a cull. I only visited today to see if my entry had been approved. Unlike yourself being a farmer I spend my time farming and have not the time to make multiple forum entries.After this entry I wont have any reason to visit again. I have little or no time to do so. If any website wants to take up my offer, my contact details can be found on my website.

Just one other point, I am aware what proactive measures I can take, and I dont need to be told how to suck eggs, but being a farm of only 80 acres and 4 Badger Setts it would not be very sensible or cost effective knowing that beyond a fence there waits a lump of lead.

posted 15 days ago Dom:

I agree there is something magical about badgers, when they first poke that snout out and sniff the air. Perhaps its the time of day and the fact we dont have to many big animals wild here but they do have that 'X' factor (for want of a better term) and this comes from someone who has seen red squirrels, wild dear, barn owls babies in the nest being fed by both parents, seals,  etc, etc

And I dont think it has anything to do with Potters books or anything liek that either. Some animals just have an aura and the badger I belive is one of them

posted 15 days ago Newt:

Very true Steve.

The BCG is in truth TB. What happened (as I understand it and put simply) is that a culture of TB was kept in a lab while the guy investigating it went away (was it to war? I forget) anyway after some time he returned to the lab and his assistant had kept the culture alive but not very well. Consequently it had mutated and a form of TB had evolved that was relatively harmless. By giving this attenuated bacterium to patients, the patient's own immunity system then builds up antibodies and it is these that fight the infection and stop a breakdown in the host when subsequently exposed to the full blown TB.

Unfortunately this culture was developed 100 years ago and is no longer as affective as it was since modern strains of TB have evolved since then.As for human TB and bTB genetically they are almost identical (bTB is a mutation of human TB by the way) so what one does, so will the other. Over use of the vaccine, especially when given to infected animals - that it will not help by the way - is very probably likely to cause bTB to mutate in the next two decades to be unresponsive to the BCG. This is why it is termed a failing vaccine. When we lose the BCG there is no replacement yet on the horizon.

To randomly give vaccine out into the environment to any species that comes along is considered unethical for these reasons and the scientific community can not do it.

I agree that BCG could potentially be given orally, unfortunately it has to pass through the badgers' gut and consequently is destroyed in oral vaccines - which is why they can't get it to work yet. It could also be given by aerosol potentially we believe.

TB is also becoming completely untreatable in some countries

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-01-07/india/30601741_1_multi-drug-resistant-tb-tb-patients-tb-germs

http://www.voanews.com/english/news/asia/east-pacific/North-Korea-Struggling-to-Fight-Epidemic-of-Drug-Resistant-TB-133680398.html

The clock is ticking, we are losing the fight against TB, without BCG and the various treatments people are going to start dieing in large numbers here again. According to the ISG report 300,000 people a year used to die of TB (many of which were bTB from unpasteurised milk).Today a human being dies of TB every 20 seconds somewhere in the world.

You are quite right Webbroadcaster et al can feed their badgers and on 60 acres they could feed them well within the boundaries one would expect, but the badgers are still going to leave their farm and could well be shot outside. Quite true. Vitamins and minerals help an animal fight bTB but won't prevent it getting bTB. And putting in feed spots will also put them at risk from illegal intruders shooting them, however the cameras would be a deterent. I didn't say that these measures were infallible, I merely suggested that they are better than writing letters that will be ignored as so many of mine have been.

One last point; when TB does start killing large numbers of people again in this country - and it will unless we stop it - the tide will turn and just like in Foot and Mouth (who ever is in power) they will send in the army. At that point you can kiss Meles meles good bye because they will destroy the lot. No politician can afford to sit back while his/her electorate die and trust me, whatever they say now, will be meaningless then.

Badgers are not the enemy, M. bovis is, but unfortunately badgers are a "perfect" host and "wildlife reservoir". We must address this.

http://www.labspaces.net/115199/Researchers_uncover_why_the_body_can_t_defend_against_tuberculosis

posted 15 days ago Steven Ault:

I'm sure Webbroacaster will call a meeting for 'his' badgers and advise tham not to encroach on another farmers land. Just because you don't permit badger culling on your land that does'nt mean they can't be killed when searching for food. He could feed them vitamin enriched food to build up their immunity to tb and to keep them on his land (as you say Newt). Don't give up though, keep writing to influencial people expressing your disapproval of the pilot culls. I'm gathering together notes for an email which I'll send to Spelman, Paice, and my own MP. What's in the vaccination? Minute traces of tb presumably. Can this be added to badger feed so they don't have to be caught and injected?, or does it have to enter the bloodstream? Is that method too unsafe and indescriminate? According to the WHO there are strains of tb in humans which are now drug resistant, something which unfortunately may add weight to the culling argument. Vaccinations will require constant development, as diseases and viruses will often mutate to survive. Anti-biotics, which are so important to humans are so overused in the poultry industry that they too are becoming ineffective. Don't underestimate the influence of politics Newt. There's no such thing as paranoia where politics is concerned.   

posted 15 days ago Newt:

Webbroadcaster they can not cull on your land without your permission. You can also vaccinate the badgers on your land yourself provided that you have been on the Fera training course. If not you can get your vet to vaccinate your badgers provided that you can demonstrate that you can trap and handle wild badgers safely and humanly and can get a license to do so. However neither of these options is cheap. However to do nothing should not be an option if you truly care about your badgers.

[On a personal level, as a farmer myself, I think your analysis of the politics superficial and offencive. The fact is your neighbours are suffering a great deal from the effects of bovine TB and if you showed them a little more sympathy then they might respect your views a little more. However I can understand your anger and hurt so I sympathise very deeply with your feelings]

Badgers are not the cause of bTB, but there is clear scientific evidence that they carry bTB and once in their population it is a constant source of reinfection, not just to cattle but to other badgers and other mammals as well including yourself.

Even if you couldn't care less that your neighbours are suffering because of the effects of bTB on their businesses, surely you can see that tackling bTB by vaccinating your own badgers must be of benefit to the badgers themselves?

If you want to protect your badgers, you must address the disease. Please vaccinate your badgers, by all means register that you don't want them to cull on your land and I advise you to start feeding your badgers heavily on your own land to discourage them from wandering and put up cameras on the feeding site).

I wish you well,

Newt

posted 16 days ago webbroadcaster:

I have for the past 7 years been broadcasting every day and night from Denbury Farm in Somerset live Badger webcams. www.denburyfarm.co.uk or www.wildlifetv.co.uk . To my total shock my farm could well be in the Taunton Deane catchment area for the Badger Pilot Cull. I did until a few years ago own the domain savethebadger.com but I let it expire after the Labour Goverment decided against a Cull, never believing that a Conservative Government would even consider a Cull after their past experiences when they started the gassing programme that backfired so badly on them.

How a Government can investigate a 6 week pilot Cull not knowing if they are killing Badgers with or without TB beggars belief, more so after the scientific evidence screams against it. What is a 6 week pilot meant to achieve? A good ammount of the dead Badgers seen on the highways are those shot by Farmers and dumped away from their Farms. There are many Farmer who do not kill Badgers and who are against a Cull and I apologise to them.

Unfortunately the proposed Cull has been instigated to appease the NFU who need to show their dwindling membership that it maybe worth rejoining. Those against a Cull could well consider that they are not putting money into the NFU by not insuring with their insurance arm. I am not sure of the Gloustershire Members of Parliament but Taunton Deane is a marginal Libera seat. Could well be that the Conservatives are saying not in our back yard. There are more suitable pilot Cull areas in Devon. Reckon the Liberals could well take the stick for those against the Cull at the next general election.

My webcams have given me an insight to what a close family a Badgers Sett is. At this time of the year we only see a few members of the Sett every night, but in a month or so when the Cubs are born there is a lot more activity with the changing of the Sett bedding. Late May/ June time the Cubs show for the first time. Even after 7 years it is still magical. If people who have never seen Badgers see our webcams they may well decide as we do that Badgers should not be killed to experiment for proof that they are the cause of Bovine TB. If Defra make sure that the law on cattle movements is adhered to it will start to show even better results on the decline in TB in cattle as it is starting to.

The general public need to be aware of Badgers. If any websites dedicated to saving the Badgers feels that our webcams may be beneficial to saving the Badgers I will consider our webcam streams being embedded into their website.

posted 17 days ago Newt:

Fair comments Steve. I tend to agree, although I have known game keepers who have fought against badger baiting, well one anyway.

But your comments re farmers not wanting trouble on their land is right. I would go further and point out those running the cull will not want the waters muddied either and will be quite tough on illegal activities.

Just so that you know, I know a lad who was thrown off the local shoot for interfering with a badger sett - my sett and I reported him - he was also the son of the guy who ran the shoot, but other members of the syndicate included a senior police officer and an MP and they could not afford to be implicated in one member's behaviour.

posted 17 days ago Steven Ault:

Brian bruv, is you really workin wiv Dappy on dat nu song yeah? Interesting collaboration! Newt, I think humans cull enough badgers in this country already. It's estimated that 50,000 are killed on our roads every year. That's more than enough slaughter for me. The only thing that may deter wildlife criminals is regular sett monitoring by local badger groups, along with strong sentencing for high profile cases. Maybe we could campaign for tougher sentences for this type of crime. There are e-petitions calling for this. We need vigilant farmers who play by the rules, and there are lots of them. Few farmers want trouble on their land even if they do support the cull. There's lots of rural crime and farmers are often the biggest victims, we should'nt forget that. Fuel and metal thefts are rife, as is cattle rustling, so it's in the farmer's interest to report all illegal activity. Working with gamekeepers might be a stretch for me though.   

posted 17 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Hey Dom. I'd like to share ideas but can you summarise what you've been discussing? How can we end cruelties to animals (to end badger baiting etc.) is that the Question? Sorry havn't been able to keep up?

posted 17 days ago Dom:

No takers????

On a side note, we finally had the news from our umbrella company that hours have to be cut-50 a week in total. Some people will now be living on 7 to 6 hours pay a week. I do have some Tory supporters in my staff who I share gentle banter with and they are always telling me how woeful labour were and how the Tories are doing a good job. Wonder how they will feel at the end of the week. I feel dreadful having to break this news. Im not really cut out for this. Its bloody heartbreaking as Ive worked with some of these folk for 8 years

And then I hear we are buying a yatch and funding a new train-what is wrong with this country? And even if i was not against the fox hunts-why are they even considering a repeal. there MUST be more important things to spend time on....like keeping good working people off the breadline.

I cant help but feel we are in for some BAD times, not just economically. A fire is burning and its going to bubble over. And its not nice, not when you have rioters looting in the strets below you, its scary. As my female friend in London will attest to-BUT LETS BRING BACK FOX HUNTING! ARGGHHH, can Cameron not see what hes doing?

I will check in tomorrow in the jope of seeing some ideas on cruelty come on folks, keep the flag flying :-)

posted 18 days ago Dom:

Hi Newt, sorry to interupt but it would also be useful to hear what Brian proposes to, if he is interested, whihc Im sure he is?

I think we could have a real case here whihc can cross many cultures and classes. I have some more thoughts to bring in, but Ill wait until we've heard more ideas first. Also I will tell of other cruelty cases from my experince (pets) which would also benefit from an anti cruelty ideal.Ill pop back tomorrow. Id liek to see something tangible and I think we can acheive it with the right 'push'. A concentrated co-ordinated push. But to be bulletproof its needs to be shot to peices first until impreganable. Lets get some aims maybe first, what we want to stop or start and to be more specific.

posted 18 days ago Newt:

Dom,

I don't really know.

I do know, as others have said here, that these people are the worst sort of criminals. So I'm not sure that licenses would work, unless dogs had to be micro chipped and dogs that weren't could then be seized. But then what? I understand that fighting dogs and badger baiting dogs are treated very cruelly in their training. One hears of tread mills to exercise them in which a cat (or some other poor unfortunate like a stollen small dog) is tethered in front of the tethered dog. We hear that the dogs are often beaten and whipped to increase their viscousness and so on. These would not make balanced pets. So should we put them down? What if unregistered dogs were just normal dogs, then what?

Ceasar Millan teaches us that he can make any dog balanced again and uses as an example Daddy a pitbull he often takes with him and indeed that dog is about the calmest dog that you could ever wish to meet.

My problem is that all this is blaming the dog, and it may end up paying with its life, when the real problem is not the dog but the humans involved.

I don't agree with the dangerous dogs act at all; I think it should be a bad owners act.

Anyway that's just me.

I'd like to hear what Judi and Steve have to say, come on guys, its not often I agree with you both on something, what would you do about badger baiting? And before you say stopping the badger cull, that won't stop badger baiting at all and I think you both are intelligent enough to realise that. Stopping the cull may in fact encourage just this sort of criminallity.

posted 18 days ago Dom:

What ideas do people have? Newt you have experience dealing with baiters- any ideas? I'm for licenses and high fines. How do we get an anti cruelty ideal onto the table so to speak?

posted 18 days ago Steven Ault:

town.clerk@morley.gov.uk

Hi Save Me, just thought I'd let you know that the email address for Morley council in the news section is incorrect. People will probably realise but it may be worth re-writing. Later, Steve. 

posted 18 days ago Newt:

Agreed, okay guys what are we going to do about it?

posted 19 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Hey all.

All this is so awful to read about. I'm on danish sites at the moment trying to cope with hunting here. We have 4 hunters per square kilometers!!!!?? Madness!

I came across this page, good to know we have EU companions:

http://www.efah.net/newsite/index.htm

I'm thinking; How can it be we don't have proper global laws protecting animals, what are we afraid of? All these cruelties and the insight to it, then the revelation and finally an end to it. First when we have Animal rights we will get there and animals will have an opportunity for a decent life on earth. Apparently humankind can not change without law enforcement and penalty! It's so sad.

posted 19 days ago Steven Ault:

I'm not entirely anti-monarchy Dom. I think they give the country a little uniqueness and they can be usefull as non-political embassadors. When politicians visit a country there is usually an underlying motive such as money, war, or trade. The advantage of Royal visits is promoting a cultural exchange with no sinister objective. I'd like to think so anyway, although Prince Andrew was given the role of trade embassador to promote British business and faced criticism for being inept. I just wish the Royals contemporised a little and had a better influence on the public. Can anyone describe Michael Gove without swearing? Forget the rabbit in Donnie Darko, he gives me nightmares.

posted 19 days ago Dom:

Im not saying it would stop these activities, if someone is determined enough they will do it, but I would have thought it would cut down on the opportunists and quick fix joes.

posted 19 days ago Dom:

I will be spending my money on as much non english stuff as possible. Royal family-I just have no interest what so ever. New yatch!? do I get a say in this? How about we plant a forest or woods in her name, be more bloody useful and she would actually have done something people could asscociate with.

I had no idea these illegal underground badger baits went on. A license would certantly help because the specific type of dogs being bred would have to be recorded and then the Police would be able to keep tabs on the owner and if teh dogs sustains injuries (likely)  then the vet can imform the law. From what I do know they are crossing lurchers with staffs to create dogs which can take down deer.

posted 19 days ago Steven Ault:

Good recovery Judi! Your friend would have been furious! Yes badgers can fetch up to £500 each for fighting, as so much more money is gambled on the outcome of fights. The badger of course always suffers a terrible death, the gambling relates to the 'toughest' dog. Its value will rise upon victory. Do you honestly think people won't see this as a perfect opportunity to endulge in this activity? If someone was allowed to trap badgers for shooting, they may see a business opportunity and sell them to baiters for good profit. Dom, you support the public's gift to the Queen in the form of a brand new yacht then? What a pillock Mr Gove is. 

posted 19 days ago Judi Hewitt:

I meant to say she is NOT one to BULL****!!!!

posted 19 days ago Judi Hewitt:

The badger cull is open to so much corruption and badger baiters will have a field day. Who will be there at night to see what goes on? Plus badgers are sought after by evil underground badger baiters who take live badgers (worth a fair bit to other baiters) wanting to use them for betting for fights in cellars and other places where these evil scum will not be heard or interrupted.

Please don't ask me where I heard about this but according to our badger sett recorder Mrs Lee it does go on - and she is one to bu**s***t!!

A few years ago a live badger was thought to be worth a few hundred pounds to these underground baiters who bet on the outcome of dog fighting (killing) badger.

posted 20 days ago Newt:

Well I hope that you are wrong Steve, besides which, trying to dig out a badger sett by hand would be a huge job! No, I doubt that there will be many people try such a thing, and those that do will be unsuccessful! But I have no doubt that any licensed operative caught doing such a thing would lose his license because they can't afford for the cull to be discredited like that.

posted 20 days ago Steven Ault:

By the way Brian, I think your skeleton friends on the soapbox are forging scythes.

posted 20 days ago Dom:

And no I wont be watching the Olympics or the Queens what ever. Never been as ashamed to live in England as I am now.

posted 20 days ago Dom:

CAmerons a clot aint he Steve, just can't wait to put a X by labour. When they have finished running the disabled, the poor, the unemployed, the working class and pretty much everyone esle who isnt a banker, politician or huntsman into the ground hopefully we can rebuild this country. 

Right wingers....get rid of them and there outdated, bordeline racist + classist politics, we all know where right wing politics can end up. 1939-45

posted 20 days ago Steven Ault:

I can't believe David Cameron said the Hunting act took the law into an area where it did'nt belong! Unbelievable! The laws of the land should penetrate every aspect of society regardless of 'class' or wealth. It just reinforces the view that the hunts think they're above the law and that only 'commoners' should abide by laws. Newt, badger baiting has no legal place in badger culling but I'm sure it will have an unofficial part to play. I'm sure many farmers and 'friends' will dig out badgers from setts illegally instead of waiting patiently for free running badgers to appear.   

posted 20 days ago Steven Ault:

Check out 'Countryfile' tonight, there's an interview with David Cameron on issues such as the badger cull, animal welfare, and farming subsidies. Lets hope John Craven asks him some probing questions and counters some of the political 'spin'. 

posted 20 days ago Newt:

Let's be clear here, badger baiting has nothing to do with culling! The purpose of badger baiting is to prolong death in the cruelist of contests, simply to show that one dog is harder than the next.

Badger baiting has nothing to do with the badger cull and has no place in it.

posted 21 days ago Dom:

I agree with Steve that to much conservation is done by the gun. Usually habitat is the main cause of losing animals, the gun more often than not provides a short term solution. The deer culling or red squirrels spring to mind. But an anti cruelty plan has to be open to include as broad a populace as possible. I feel we wrap ourselves up in whys and whats to much - lets get an Everyman / Simple campaign which is easily accessible and understood by even the lowest demominator. Trust me to market something effectively you need it clear/ simple and open and of course very eye catching. I have experience with this as well as graphics and photography- to essential aids to any campaign.

posted 21 days ago Dom:

I think licenses for breeding, ownership and chip and snip all being compulsory by law would be a massive step forward. True it's not perfect and yes you can argue hard ish to enforce- but the simple act of having to apply for a license and have your animals on a database is going to make it harder for people to have or breed animals for a quick buck.tougher sentences as well. But all the charities I know are filled to the point of turning away.and if it slows the profit breeders and undesirables having dogs it's a start surely?

posted 21 days ago Dom:

Hi newt, I agree with you on this , we are wrapping ourselves in tape but not getting nowt done. Generally I feel someone who can tear an animal apart, wild or domestic is not going to be a nice person. We need a clear campaign to stand behind and let the gov know. Something we can add our voices to

posted 21 days ago Newt:

I have read the comments here with very great interest, in so many ways I agree with what is being said and yet the conclusions that you draw sadden me very deeply.

It seems to me that most sane people would see badger baiting as a terribly inhumane thing. For those of us who have witnessed the aftermath or seen film of such barbarism, it is sickening and despicable. I don't think that one human being's opinion is any more or less vallid if (s)he eats meat or has a pet dog or not or is a lifelong devoted Buddist. Surely the important thing here is that we all put aside our petty differences and unite against such evil crimes?

I appreciate your zealous passion to protect all living creatures, I really do, but that does not make your opinions any more vallid than someone who cares about conservation or their own pet dog (or whatever), surely the most important thing is that we all stand together against such cruelty?

Otherwise, if you insist that the only people who have a right to be against something are those who have never killed or eaten any other living creature then it is going to be a very small group indeed!

posted 22 days ago Steven Ault:

Dom, this country has a problem with anything bigger than a mouse? Mice are amongst the most persecuted of all species, along with moles, bees, wasps, spiders, flies, ants, beetles, woodlice, the list goes on and on and on and on.............These are all complex lifeforms, more intelligent than creatures ten times their size. 

posted 22 days ago Steven Ault:

I actually really miss having a garden. Reading about that pond conservation scheme reminds me of my garden where I grew up. It was a large garden with unkept areas, hedgehogs were in hogs heaven. I brought one indoors once and groomed him. He loved it so much he poked his head out. They're very noisy eaters though. A mouse lived in an old cast iron fireplace ouside. I used to sit next to the pond at night and all of a sudden I'd hear this almighty splash. A toad would creep up and dive into the water. We had newts too. If you put your hand in the water they would headbutt your fingers. That garden kept me sane when I was growing up. It was a haven for wildlife. The only problem with that is the new owners. Would they see the wildlife as pests? 

posted 22 days ago Steven Ault:

Betina, I spent time debating with vegan activist nutters during the Christmas period, and they are the most narrow-minded, arrogant fascists you will ever encounter. They are just anarchists who have found a cause to project their own discontentment with life. Many animal rights activists are more human haters than animal lovers. Why do you think animal rights campaigners have such a bad reputation? It's not because of people like Brian May that's for sure. It's the human haters that have created that image. Many activists could'nt name more than two species, thay just want to cause trouble. I don't agree with the comment about animal welfare campaigners being humanitarians too. I'd like to think it applies to the majority of people though. I dispair at the idiotic comments on facebook sometimes. They give the opposition so much ammunition with their thoughtless rants.

Yes Dom, there is a big difference between animal rights, welfare, and conservation, but why would someone who runs a wildlife centre wish for badgers to be killed? It defies comprehension. You can't punish something just for existing, especially if they pose little threat to us or our food supply. It's amazing how people use the 'non-native' argument to kill grey squirrels but would happily kill native badgers given the chance. I reckon many hunters would kill the reds if they could. Maybe soon country dwellers will be visiting the towns to observe wildlife because that's where they get most protection! I love urban wildlife, especially on rooftops in large cities. It's amazing when mini wildlife havens are created on skyscrapers. Did anyone see Earthflight last night? Brilliant.

posted 22 days ago Dom:

Hi Bet / raindance

Steve-there is definately a line in the sand between conservation and animal rights. 

(I prefer the term 'rights' as oppose to 'welfare' as welfare currently includes the RSPCA approved day old chicken macerators. As someone who has to work to welfare guidleines, I think at best they are cr@p. Nowhere near the 'welfare' what most people would belive animals should have. Our animals are well above the minimal welfare guidelines. We spent over £200 on curing a dwarf hamster's mite problems, scraps, medicines, bathing twice daily and application of meds and we did it.He was oK in the end after a wrong diagnosis. This is what we try to instill into new owners. Ye sthe animal only cost £10.00 but its your lawful responsibilty to look after it no matte rthe cost, even when its cheaper to re-buy)

I digress, I agree Stsve, conservations answers is to often 'to kill' instead of looking at other ways. The deer culling in the Caingorms for example, red squirrels, the wild hogs we have, etc

Basically its the cost I expect. No excuse.

So Steve-that old 'ground nesting bird' argument. If the law on the badger goes, I expect we shall see an end to our badgers to be honest. The country has a problem with anything bigger than a squirrel (actually scratch that, a mouse) because rats , squirrels are slaughtened to.

I have read a lot of comments about how badgers ruin land, and they are certantly good enginners, my uncles summerhouse can attest to this. When badgers are wrongfully called vermin by some people, its time that person get another job. Why work in the country if you can't tolerate nature-pathetic! 

I belive there is usually a 'live and let live' answer to most conflicts, but I have found many people dont want to listen, let alone explore possibilites, and your usually 'dismissed' as a bunny hugger or something. However for a bunny hugger I find it funny how I love predators and dont get all 'up in arms' if a Sparrowhawk kills something cute yet most of the people who hunt detest them and will do to them what they say they do to other animals.

Irony?

posted 22 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

So you had to spoil the moment, eh Steven? We have so little of these....

OK, can you be more specific to the highjacked causes? I'm afraid I need examples. And what wrong reasons are you thinking about? 

Fear and hatred always follows when new winds try to change the minds. A battle is unavoidable. Eventually more people will understand and then adapt.

posted 22 days ago Steven Ault:

Not sure if that's strictly true though Betina. Compassion is usually quite selective and there are many examples of people getting involved in animal welfare activities for all the wrong reasons. Some people highjack causes and use them as a vehicle to project hate towards others. You only have to read comments on forums and facebook pages to realise this. Many people do more harm than good because their motivation for protesting is purely selfish. They're not interested in 'animals' or wildlife, they just want to attack others on the grounds of class or gender. Every 'movement' has its imposters. On the other side of the banner of animal welfare you often find fear and hatred of humanity. 

It's good to see the Morley pigeons have a temporary stay of execution. I wrote to them a while back about this. Lets hope they find a more practical way of managing the situation. I can't believe Mr whittall from the Anchor Wildlife Site wants badgers culling because they eat birds eggs. It's unbelievable how selfish and obsessive some wildlife campaigners can be. The RSPB is similarly selfish in the way it 'protects' some bird species. How can you run a wildlife site and demand the killing of wildlife? What an idiot! He wants their protected status removed by the sounds of it. I don't think he's in the right job!

posted 22 days ago Betina Løvbeck Jensen:

Raindance, it is indeed great words from Annette Pugh.  

I rewrite it to:

On the other side of the banner of animal welfare you find compassion for humanity.

Hugs to you Annette for saying this. I'm deeply touch by it because it's so simple and so true. This is why we do what we do. If you read this. Thank you!

posted 23 days ago Raindance:

It's a great letter and I hope it will encourage more people to take action and call the police. It certainly takes courage to do so, as a friend of mine, who lives deep in the countryside, has found to her cost. 

I also liked Annette Pugh's letter in the other part of Brian's website. "Lifting the banner of animal welfare" is a wonderful mission statement.

posted 24 days ago Dom:

The 'I-science' article you posted on here in news is well worth a read incase you lot missed it.

posted 24 days ago Dom:

Something we can all get behind. Apart from direct people here and tell people is there anything else you think we can do Brian and co?